High School Teacher Writes Letter Denying Rape Culture, Enrages Students - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Action Frank;52197899]Again, if a CHOICE by a victim is tied to the LIKELIHOOD of their being victimized, how does that not imply blame or at least shared blame?[/QUOTE] Just because the victim has more than one choice in something, doesn't mean that one of either choices is wrong. This is what I am arguing. A statement can be nuanced. Meaning depends also on context and tone. [QUOTE=Action Frank;52197899]You're not on trial here. I'm not trying to get you to admit to being a rape apologist. I just want people to stop pretendong that saying "If you didnt wear x, you might now have been raped" is somehow not tying them to their own victimhood.[/QUOTE] Thanks for clarifying. As I've said before, this isn't something I would say to a rape victim. However, as precautionary advice I do not think it's victim blaming. [QUOTE=Action Frank;52197899]This isn't a fuckin' video game.[/QUOTE] Nobody here is dumb enough to think that. [QUOTE=Action Frank;52197899]Their is no invisible percentage chance of being raped that goes up or down with your clothing or actions. Rapes are not random attacks or impulse. No one has ever reflexivly raped someone.[/QUOTE] Surely nobody knows for sure? Like any human, rapists may use a large number of reasons to try and justify their actions. I found an interesting article here where rapists are interviewed: [url]https://emmatheemo.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/why-do-rapists-rape-for-power-or-sex-lets-ask-a-rapist/[/url] Here is an excerpt from a part that outlines statistics on 72 interviewed rapists: [QUOTE]10)A lot of them blame the victim in some way, like “she was dressed sexy and I got an urge”, “she invited me in” and “she visited me in my house”[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Action Frank;52197899]Its a premeditated act spurred by one persons desire to dominate another.[/QUOTE] It can be. [QUOTE=Action Frank;52197899]If a rapist with a fetish for blondes raped someone you wouldn't tell her about minimizing her risks by dying her hair, now would you?[/QUOTE] No, I personally wouldn't. But that wouldn't be necessarily victim blaming either.

We tell potential victims of crimes how to avoid becoming a victim [i]all the time.[/i] If someone is at risk of being hacked, for instance, we might tell them that they have a hole in their security. If someone is walking alone, at night, in a known dangerous area, we might tell them that that's a bad idea. If someone leaves their car unlocked, we tell them "hey you should probably lock your car." If someone posts answers to their recovery questions on Facebook, we might tell them why they shouldn't do that. If someone leaves their valuables unattended, we might tell them "hey you know anyone could just take that." Why is it acceptable to offer advice for risk avoidance with regards to almost any crime besides rape? Do we want a society in which the methods through which we can help avoid terrible situations are never discussed? Keep in mind that [i]being wrong about the risk factors[/i] (that is, believing that revealing clothes increase your chances of rape when that may not be the case) isn't really relevant to the conversation of whether [i]offering advice regarding risk factors[/i] is okay.

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;52194663]Which is nowhere NEAR the truth in the western world.[/QUOTE] Fraternities

Basically everyone agrees that rape is bad and should be reduced However trying to prove/disprove there's a "rape culture" is a complete distraction and wastes everyone's time It's such a charged statement and a massive generalization

[QUOTE=geel9;52197994]We tell potential victims of crimes how to avoid becoming a victim [i]all the time.[/i] If someone is at risk of being hacked, for instance, we might tell them that they have a hole in their security. If someone is walking alone, at night, in a known dangerous area, we might tell them that that's a bad idea. If someone leaves their car unlocked, we tell them "hey you should probably lock your car." If someone posts answers to their recovery questions on Facebook, we might tell them why they shouldn't do that. If someone leaves their valuables unattended, we might tell them "hey you know anyone could just take that." Why is it acceptable to offer advice for risk avoidance with regards to almost any crime besides rape? Do we want a society in which the methods through which we can help avoid terrible situations are never discussed? Keep in mind that [i]being wrong about the risk factors[/i] (that is, believing that revealing clothes increase your chances of rape when that may not be the case) isn't really relevant to the conversation of whether [i]offering advice regarding risk factors[/i] is okay.[/QUOTE] Usually because the advice against Rape can either be boiled down into A) Common sense advice that isn't exclusive to sexual assault avoidance (e.g. don't go walking alone at night). or B) Degrading and restrictive measures that end up being needlessly insulting and go into a great deal of victim blaming ("Well she shouldn't have been wearing just a sexy outfit!). People don't have a problem with offering sensible advice that keeps them from being assaulted, what people are offended by is when victim blaming occurs, thereby taking agency in the crime away from the actual [I]rapist[/I] and placing it on the person that was raped.

[QUOTE=redBadger;52198061]Fraternities[/QUOTE] I think we're all unclear in what the definition of rape culture is. If we were to change the definition of Rape culture from "a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse." to "a society or environment that has social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse." Then yes, The United States does have rape culture. Just look at who we elected.

[QUOTE=Talishmar;52198432]Basically everyone agrees that rape is bad and should be reduced However trying to prove/disprove there's a "rape culture" is a complete distraction and wastes everyone's time It's such a charged statement and a massive generalization[/QUOTE] So what is the problem with trying to critically expand the collective discussion on the deeper underlying cultural behaviors/messages that contribute to rape? "rape is bad and should be reduced" is the absolute bare bones most basic step in building consensus, but is no where near the level of public discourse we need to actually address problems which affect our society. The point of using a phrase like 'rape culture' is to be a broad general container to begin exploring difficult topics like "what kind of messages are we exposed to in our family life, or media that contribute to willingness to rape" or any other line of thought. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems what you really might be arguing is that some people abuse buzzwords like "rape culture" for very limited ends and misguided purposes. If that's what you're claiming then great, thats a valid contribution and we definitely need to talk about how to move past such things, but I'm sure you'll agree that itd be ridiculous to expect that we could make progress on such a thorny issue without advancing the very undeveloped collective understanding when it comes to things like this.

[QUOTE=geel9;52197994]We tell potential victims of crimes how to avoid becoming a victim [i]all the time.[/i] If someone is at risk of being hacked, for instance, we might tell them that they have a hole in their security. If someone is walking alone, at night, in a known dangerous area, we might tell them that that's a bad idea. If someone leaves their car unlocked, we tell them "hey you should probably lock your car." If someone posts answers to their recovery questions on Facebook, we might tell them why they shouldn't do that. If someone leaves their valuables unattended, we might tell them "hey you know anyone could just take that." Why is it acceptable to offer advice for risk avoidance with regards to almost any crime besides rape? Do we want a society in which the methods through which we can help avoid terrible situations are never discussed? Keep in mind that [i]being wrong about the risk factors[/i] (that is, believing that revealing clothes increase your chances of rape when that may not be the case) isn't really relevant to the conversation of whether [i]offering advice regarding risk factors[/i] is okay.[/QUOTE] First off, look at the advice, its content and how a potential/actual victim would look at it. Do you really think someone will, after they've been raped, look back and go "Hmm, geel9 was right, if I hadn't worn that cute sweater Jimmy wouldn't have raped me and then told everyone I was a liar." Fuck no, and if they did, they're going to internalize it. They picked an outfit that "raised the risk of them getting raped" and look what happened! Can you not see how obvious (but false) a connection for someone in that situation would be? How they would internalize their "mistake" for daring to wear what they wanted to? You really want to go down the road of implying wearing an outfit you like is akin to leaving a car unlocked? What, should everyone have to be mindful of every pervert's potential fetish fodder so they don't get raped? Fuck, where does the advice "Don't wear things people find attractive" end? Clothing is not a reason people get raped. Clothing does not increase someone's chance of getting raped. Shitbag rapists will say that's why they did it, but if you're staring down the barrel of rape charges I'd say you'd say just about anything to get off. People rape people because they want to exercise that power without any permission from the person they rape. When these cases go to trial, the go to argument from the defense is usually that the accuser was wearing something "revealing", "inappropriate", or "seductive" or that they had a "party-girl attitude". These are things that get brought up every, single, time a major rape case happens. When you say "It's just preventative advice!" that rings pretty hollow when it's retroactively used for character assassination. YOU might not mean for it to be that, but society at large can, and WILL use it as ammunition. When you continue that narrative, you're giving shitty people carte blanche to be shitty to other people. When we tell people not to drink from open containers, to not go alone with strangers, we are trying to preempt situations where someone could take advantage of them when they may not be able or conscious enough to respond to sexual violence, where it is absolutely not their fault. When you tell someone not to wear an article of clothing because someone might rape them, you're telling that person that their choice of attire is what will get them raped. You can try and dress it up as one of many factors, but do you think that really matters to someone post-assault? How about this, how about we stop treating people and especially women's bodies as the equivalent of a wallet or a gold chain. How about we stop equating the violation of another human being with petty theft? How about we teach people from an early age that touching other people in a sexual manner when the circumstances are really ambiguous is always wrong? How bout we punish people if they're found guilty and leave it at that? Maybe if we spent more time focusing on permission, agency, consensual actions and respect instead of what someone was wearing or who they rode home with we wouldn't need to have this discussion. I don't want no discussion of mitigating risk factors for crime. I thought that was fucking obvious. What I don't want, what I've stated multiple times in this thread, is the continuation of the lie that clothing somehow helps decide whether someone is raped or not. This cognitive dissonance that it's somehow part of the reason someone can be raped, but somehow also not, because it's the rapists fault for the rape, but somehow also not the victims fault even if it was the victim's choice to wear that clothing is absolutely fucking batshit. This is some serious gordian knot tier thinking.

[QUOTE=Action Frank;52199686]First off, look at the advice, its content and how a potential/actual victim would look at it. Do you really think someone will, after they've been raped, look back and go "Hmm, geel9 was right, if I hadn't worn that cute sweater Jimmy wouldn't have raped me and then told everyone I was a liar." Fuck no, and if they did, they're going to internalize it. They picked an outfit that "raised the risk of them getting raped" and look what happened! Can you not see how obvious (but false) a connection for someone in that situation would be? How they would internalize their "mistake" for daring to wear what they wanted to? You really want to go down the road of implying wearing an outfit you like is akin to leaving a car unlocked? What, should everyone have to be mindful of every pervert's potential fetish fodder so they don't get raped? Fuck, where does the advice "Don't wear things people find attractive" end? Clothing is not a reason people get raped. Clothing does not increase someone's chance of getting raped. Shitbag rapists will say that's why they did it, but if you're staring down the barrel of rape charges I'd say you'd say just about anything to get off. People rape people because they want to exercise that power without any permission from the person they rape. When these cases go to trial, the go to argument from the defense is usually that the accuser was wearing something "revealing", "inappropriate", or "seductive" or that they had a "party-girl attitude". These are things that get brought up every, single, time a major rape case happens. When you say "It's just preventative advice!" that rings pretty hollow when it's retroactively used for character assassination. YOU might not mean for it to be that, but society at large can, and WILL use it as ammunition. When you continue that narrative, you're giving shitty people carte blanche to be shitty to other people. When we tell people not to drink from open containers, to not go alone with strangers, we are trying to preempt situations where someone could take advantage of them when they may not be able or conscious enough to respond to sexual violence, where it is absolutely not their fault. When you tell someone not to wear an article of clothing because someone might rape them, you're telling that person that their choice of attire is what will get them raped. You can try and dress it up as one of many factors, but do you think that really matters to someone post-assault? How about this, how about we stop treating people and especially women's bodies as the equivalent of a wallet or a gold chain. How about we stop equating the violation of another human being with petty theft? How about we teach people from an early age that touching other people in a sexual manner when the circumstances are really ambiguous is always wrong? How bout we punish people if they're found guilty and leave it at that? Maybe if we spent more time focusing on permission, agency, consensual actions and respect instead of what someone was wearing or who they rode home with we wouldn't need to have this discussion. I don't want no discussion of mitigating risk factors for crime. I thought that was fucking obvious. What I don't want, what I've stated multiple times in this thread, is the continuation of the lie that clothing somehow helps decide whether someone is raped or not. This cognitive dissonance that it's somehow part of the reason someone can be raped, but somehow also not, because it's the rapists fault for the rape, but somehow also not the victims fault even if it was the victim's choice to wear that clothing is absolutely fucking batshit. This is some serious gordian knot tier thinking.[/QUOTE] I believe rape is a horrible thing. but, based on others experiences - not by being a victim myself (nor female if relevant). That fact alone doesn't allow me to sympathize beyond a certain point, and I believe that it is the same case with many others, so take that as a disclaimer. I'm not trying to say rape is a light subject, but I still think that first of all you have to realize that rapists are still human beings that are more complex than just being driven solely by their own sexual perversions and/or will to "dominate" or hurt other people. Rapists are not machines with a single programmed function. With that in mind though - I have never met a rapist, nor do I want to, to be honest - but according to some posts on this thread and some of my research and knowledge, it's apparent that rapists are not, as I said before, machines driven by a single function. The victims behavior, appearance, and the time and place, presence of other people in the area, and many many more factors still determine a rape scenario. So no, it's not appropriate at all to tell someone not to dress a certain way to "avoid being raped", regardless of already being a victim or not. That's plain wrong and unjust. However, it *still* does serve a function in the composition of the act. I'm not saying that discussing and/or changing the victims appearance and behaviors in regard to rape is appropriate in order to deal with the situation before or after the act - but it's still out there in the composition of it. In my opinion, the real, and only way to eliminate rape is by preventing the "creation" of potential and actual rapists. There are many, many factors taking place in the upbringing of criminals, rapists, murderers and others with malicious intent. If you want to solve the problem - you should start looking into those factors first. Rape victims DO deserve the support and aid they should be getting, and I disagree with utilizing the sentence "yeah, she was wearing X so that must be why it happened" - but it's still a factor among many.

This has started to turn into kind of a tiring discussion, so I am basically just going to repeat my points here. [QUOTE=Action Frank;52199686]Clothing is not a reason people get raped. Clothing does not increase someone's chance of getting raped. Shitbag rapists will say that's why they did it, but if you're staring down the barrel of rape charges I'd say you'd say just about anything to get off. People rape people because they want to exercise that power without any permission from the person they rape. When these cases go to trial, the go to argument from the defense is usually that the accuser was wearing something "revealing", "inappropriate", or "seductive" or that they had a "party-girl attitude". These are things that get brought up every, single, time a major rape case happens.[/QUOTE] "X was not the reason even though rapists said it was." is what you're saying. So basically, you're saying that you know rapists better than they know themselves. You CANNOT make statements like these. You do not know all the possible reasons someone might rape, so you should not pretend you do. Humans aren't simple machines, they're complex fucking minds. And again you're bringing up court stuff. I've told you before that this advice isn't a valid defense, stop trying to make us look like shitheads. [QUOTE=Action Frank;52199686]When you say "It's just preventative advice!" that rings pretty hollow when it's retroactively used for character assassination. YOU might not mean for it to be that, but society at large can, and WILL use it as ammunition. When you continue that narrative, you're giving shitty people carte blanche to be shitty to other people.[/QUOTE] No, that's bullshit. You're never justifying the actions of the rapists. You may think all you want that people are when they use this advice, but I am sorry, the world is more nuanced than that and it doesn't work this way. [QUOTE=Action Frank;52199686]When we tell people not to drink from open containers, to not go alone with strangers, we are trying to preempt situations where someone could take advantage of them when they may not be able or conscious enough to respond to sexual violence, where it is absolutely not their fault. When you tell someone not to wear an article of clothing because someone might rape them, you're telling that person that their choice of attire is what will get them raped. You can try and dress it up as one of many factors, but do you think that really matters to someone post-assault?[/QUOTE] I think we're all in agreement that this is a terrible thing to tell someone post-assault. How can you not see that telling someone to avoid a certain thing doesn't always place blame on another person for not doing that? Why is it so black-and-white with you? [QUOTE=Action Frank;52199686]How about this, how about we stop treating people and especially women's bodies as the equivalent of a wallet or a gold chain. How about we stop equating the violation of another human being with petty theft?[/QUOTE] Nobody is equating women's bodies with valuables. Nobody is equating two acts of crime. We're talking about comparing ADVICE. It's tiring if you keep repeating the same stuff we've already addressed. [QUOTE=Action Frank;52199686]How about we teach people from an early age that touching other people in a sexual manner when the circumstances are really ambiguous is always wrong? How bout we punish people if they're found guilty and leave it at that? Maybe if we spent more time focusing on permission, agency, consensual actions and respect instead of what someone was wearing or who they rode home with we wouldn't need to have this discussion.[/QUOTE] Where the hell do we tell you that we don't agree with this? We're not focusing on what someone was wearing for the sake of trying to find a solution to avoid rape. You misunderstand. We're trying to defend the inane action of deeming any kind of avoidance advice as automatic victim blaming. It has nothing to do with trying to explain rape. Do I have to repeat this another 3 times? I am getting tired of this. [QUOTE=Action Frank;52199686]I don't want no discussion of mitigating risk factors for crime. I thought that was fucking obvious.[/QUOTE] Then stop replying to us. We're discussing that. [QUOTE=Action Frank;52199686]What I don't want, what I've stated multiple times in this thread, is the continuation of the lie that clothing somehow helps decide whether someone is raped or not.[/QUOTE] You don't KNOW if that's not the case. Neither do we. You're not an agency on the minds of all rapists. [QUOTE=Action Frank;52199686]This cognitive dissonance that it's somehow part of the reason someone can be raped, but somehow also not, because it's the rapists fault for the rape, but somehow also not the victims fault even if it was the victim's choice to wear that clothing is absolutely fucking batshit. This is some serious gordian knot tier thinking.[/QUOTE] And this is where you don't understand, at all. I've said it before. Just because you advise someone to avoid certain risks, it doesn't mean they are put at fault if they don't. The victim is NEVER at fault for getting raped. The rapist makes the choice of committing a crime. The victim does not commit a crime by the choice of their clothes. The victims choice to dress is blameless. It's not a hard concept. This is why we are comparing this advice to getting your shit stolen. Again, I wouldn't give this advice to someone POST-ASSAULT, or at all. But it doesn't blame the victim in the slightest. If you fail to understand this now, I am not going to explain that again.

An example of a risk behavior that increases the likelihood of being assaulted generally, and raped specifically, is being drunk. Huge amounts of sexual assaults, up to around 50%, are associated with the victim drinking alcohol. In fact, being a heavy drinker has a strong correlation with being a victim of sexual assault. ([url]https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh25-1/43-51.htm[/url]) Another example would be being alone at someone's home and engaging in sexual or romantic actions without making it clear that you aren't interested in having sex. I mention this because huge percentages of rape happen at home between two people who know each other and were already doing other consensual romantic things, like kissing. ([url]https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh25-1/43-51.htm[/url]) Does doing either of these thinks make the person in question deserving of being raped? No, and anyone who said so needs to check their moral compass. Does doing either of these things make the person in question responsible for being raped? No. Does that mean that doing those things is a good idea? No, it doesn't. I would recommend against them if you want to lower the likelihood that a creep will rape you.

I was sexually assaulted wearing a mcdonalds uniform, the [B]MOST[/B] unsexy thing to exist. The fuck?

[QUOTE=IJNOMED;52201341]I was sexually assaulted wearing a mcdonalds uniform, the [B]MOST[/B] unsexy thing to exist. The fuck?[/QUOTE] If people saw do you think they would more likely to cheer him on or beat the shit out of him?

[QUOTE=IJNOMED;52201341]I was sexually assaulted wearing a mcdonalds uniform, the [B]MOST[/B] unsexy thing to exist. The fuck?[/QUOTE] Just like a sober person can fatally crash their car even though drunk driving is known to be a huge risk factor for car accidents, anyone can be raped even if they aren't fitting what is considered a risk factor for rape (although I don't personally believe that clothing has much of an impact on the likelihood of becoming a victim of rape)

[QUOTE=Viper_;52201557]If people saw do you think they would more likely to cheer him on or beat the shit out of him?[/QUOTE] There was a camera, I was in the drive thru, he did it inbetween customers. I told my boss immediatley and[I] she didn't do shit. She told me to brush it off and keep working where he kept doing it...[/I]

[QUOTE=Viper_;52201557]If people saw do you think they would more likely to cheer him on or beat the shit out of him?[/QUOTE] It's really not enough that general opinion on average is more against than in favor of sexual assault. The problem persists as long as anyone at all is condoning acts that go against someone's will.

[QUOTE=Vlevs;52202262]It's really not enough that general opinion on average is more against than in favor of sexual assault. The problem persists as long as anyone at all is condoning acts that go against someone's will.[/QUOTE] By this criteria, every society that has ever existed, or ever will exist, simultaneously has every "-culture" that could possibly exist, including "rape culture", "murder culture", "spitting-in-strangers'-mouths culture", because at least one person will condone one of these acts against another.

[QUOTE=Vlevs;52202262]It's really not enough that general opinion on average is more against than in favor of sexual assault. The problem persists as long as anyone at all is condoning acts that go against someone's will.[/QUOTE] absolute moralizing is purposeless

I'm sorry. I just do not understand how telling someone before is different than telling someone after. I guess at a base level I just do not believe that a rapist will rape someone because of how they were dressed. I really don't think it would change much in the slightest. Inebriation, proximity to other people, and level of familiarity with the victim seem to me to be more reasonable things to advise someone on than how they dress.

[QUOTE=Action Frank;52202937]I'm sorry. I just do not understand how telling someone before is different than telling someone after. I guess at a base level I just do not believe that a rapist will rape someone because of how they were dressed. I really don't think it would change much in the slightest. Inebriation, proximity to other people, and level of familiarity with the victim seem to me to be more reasonable things to advise someone on than how they dress.[/QUOTE] You're talking about the specific advice to give. That's a valid discussion, and I think you made a good point. Unfortunately, that's not the conversation at hand. We're discussing whether advice should be given at all.

hi [highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("BYE - Spam" - Kiwi))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Natrox;52200643] "X was not the reason even though rapists said it was." is what you're saying. So basically, you're saying that you know rapists better than they know themselves. You CANNOT make statements like these. You do not know all the possible reasons someone might rape, so you should not pretend you do. Humans aren't simple machines, they're complex fucking minds. And again you're bringing up court stuff. I've told you before that this advice isn't a valid defense, stop trying to make us look like shitheads.[/QUOTE] I think this is the fundamental difference in interpretations lies. The logic here in this quote is essentially that because we don't know whether or not a particular aspect of behavior was the cause of the particular actions of an individual perpetrator in any particular instance- we should assume that the cause is related to a particular action of the victim. In other words, the absence of evidence to suggest any probable cause is evidence for the absence of a motive. Within this framework, any suggestion of a particular inciting behavior on the part of the victim is 'helpful' in the sense that it may prevent incidents occurring in the future, whether or not there is any evidence to suggest whether a change in behavior would've helped in any way whatsoever. This gets into the concept of falsifiability- essentially the idea that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence which, as I stated, is the lynchpin of this whole argument. With no actual evidence to support this idea that a person's choice of clothing was the causal factor of any particular instance of rape, there's no reason to assume that it is any more of a factor in any single instance than something else such as the colour of someone's hair, the way they talk, [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_complex]how much they resemble the perpetrator's mother[/url]. To assume one singular cause as a major risk factor isn't just unscientific, it's potentially dangerous because it falsely implies that potential victims are safe because they aren't wearing revealing clothing as well as implicitly shaming women who do dress in that manner for endangering themselves and perhaps others. I'm going to repeat this once more, because the people continuing to argue the same point are not internalizing this idea, there is no evidence to suggest that wearing revealing clothing significantly increases the likelihood of being the victim of rape. Simply stating that it does doesn't make it so. The fact that we cannot interview every single rapist in the world and have them say that it wasn't a significant factor is not evidence that it is a significant factor. The wearing of revealing clothing is not a related risk factor such as the drinking of alchohol or the relationship between the perpetrator and the victim- because, if it was, we would be seeing a lot of obvious statistics that link the two together, such as the statistics pointed out by sgman here: [QUOTE=sgman91;52200654]An example of a risk behavior that increases the likelihood of being assaulted generally, and raped specifically, is being drunk. Huge amounts of sexual assaults, up to around 50%, are associated with the victim drinking alcohol. In fact, being a heavy drinker has a strong correlation with being a victim of sexual assault. ([url]https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh25-1/43-51.htm[/url]) Another example would be being alone at someone's home and engaging in sexual or romantic actions without making it clear that you aren't interested in having sex. I mention this because huge percentages of rape happen at home between two people who know each other and were already doing other consensual romantic things, like kissing. ([url]https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh25-1/43-51.htm[/url])[/QUOTE] Notice how sgman uses statistics that link correlations between drunkedness and sexual assault/rape as well as sexual relations and rape eventhough those things have nothing to do with the clothing somebody wears. To people who make this argument, I suspect there may be an automatic assumption when it comes to sexually promiscuous behavior and likelihood of being sexually assaulted- which is why they don't need evidence to assume that women wearing revealing clothes are more likely to be assaulted just as they are by being drunk and having sexual relations. [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna%E2%80%93whore_complex]Even if they aren't being 'blamed', by being sexually promiscuous they certainly acted in a way that resulted in bad things happening to them.[/url] To the people arguing this position, it is just common sense- so much so that it doesn't need evidence.

I think you read too much into my statement. Again, I am not arguing that revealing clothes increase the chance of rape - I am arguing that you can't pretend to know every rapist's motive. If the rapists interviewed say they were enticed by clothing, then it COULD very well have been the motive in some cases, right? Perhaps you missed the post where I linked to this interview; [QUOTE=Natrox;52197941]Surely nobody knows for sure? Like any human, rapists may use a large number of reasons to try and justify their actions. I found an interesting article here where rapists are interviewed: [url]https://emmatheemo.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/why-do-rapists-rape-for-power-or-sex-lets-ask-a-rapist/[/url] Here is an excerpt from a part that outlines statistics on 72 interviewed rapists: "10)A lot of them blame the victim in some way, like “she was dressed sexy and I got an urge”, “she invited me in” and “she visited me in my house”" [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Natrox;52204901]I think you read too much into my statement. Again, I am not arguing that revealing clothes increase the chance of rape - I am arguing that you can't pretend to know every rapist's motive. If the rapists interviewed say they were enticed by clothing, then it COULD very well have been the motive in some cases, right? Perhaps you missed the post where I linked to this interview;[/QUOTE] [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot]We also cannot know whether or not there's a teapot orbiting Neptune right now[/url], [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot]does that mean we should assume that there is one?[/url] The problem with this whole train of thought that "we cannot know therefore it COULD be the case, right?" is that it essentially predicates the answer that whoever making the arguments wants to be the case rather than the one they do not. It's a logical trap and not an argument borne out of logic or reasoning. We need to lay all of the cards out on the table and see which answer is more likely, not just pick the one answer we choose to be correct and move into any area of unknowable evidence in order to avoid needing evidence to prove the claims being made. This isn't necessarly an issue if whatever is being believed has no effect on anyone- we can just let people believe whatever they wish as long as they aren't harming anyone else. However, when the issue in question is something that may effect people's lives through public policy and societal shared beliefs, then it's worth being more self-critical

What the hell is that comparison even? Some rapists say it is the reason they committed the crime, so how is it not a potential motive? Again, did you miss the article I linked? I must make it clear that I do not personally believe in this advice, I'm merely trying to argue that it's not automatic victim blaming. Geel9 explained it better by drawing comparisons to other risk avoiding scenarios.

[QUOTE=Natrox;52204901] Perhaps you missed the post where I linked to this interview; [QUOTE=Natrox;52197941] Surely nobody knows for sure? Like any human, rapists may use a large number of reasons to try and justify their actions. I found an interesting article here where rapists are interviewed: [url]https://emmatheemo.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/why-do-rapists-rape-for-power-or-sex-lets-ask-a-rapist/[/url] Here is an excerpt from a part that outlines statistics on 72 interviewed rapists: "10)A lot of them blame the victim in some way, like “she was dressed sexy and I got an urge”, “she invited me in” and “she visited me in my house”"[/QUOTE][/QUOTE] From a tiny sample size of 72 people- all of which are self-reporting after the fact (why wouldn't a convicted rapist blame the victim even if they would've committed the rape regardless of what the victim was wearing?), there's no real argument that can be made to generalize those results to a generalized data-set. If wearing revealing clothing was a strong risk factor for being the victim of sexual assault/rape, we would be seeing statistics showing the correlation between revealing clothing and acts of rape, such as those we have between drinking and sexual assault. At the moment, there is no evidence to assume that such a connection exists.

I think I've been relatively hazy with my arguments anyway. Just to be clear, I agree with this. However, to reiterate, I'm arguing that said advice isn't necessarily victim blaming (though it can be depending on context and meaning).

[QUOTE=Natrox;52204971]What the hell is that comparison even? Some rapists say it is the reason they committed the crime, so how is it not a potential motive? Again, did you miss the article I linked? I must make it clear that I do not personally believe in this advice, I'm merely trying to argue that it's not automatic victim blaming. Geel9 explained it better by drawing comparisons to other risk avoiding scenarios.[/QUOTE] If it's not a likely causal factor, then why do so many people bring it up and nearly every single discussion of rape or sexual assault? The fact that it is so widely discussed perpetrates the same myth as a societal shared belief, which in itself is harmful in that it stigmatizes women who dress or act in ways that seem sexually promiscuous even if there's no actual fact-based reasoning behind it. It also enables certain sections of the internet, and the wider population, [url=https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1u9994/starting_to_think_the_red_pill_philosophy_will/ceg25ql/?context=3]who genuinely do believe that women who dress promiscuously are "asking for it" because they believe they're in good company.[/url]

Well, I wonder why people bring it up. Maybe I should do more research on that. I think we're both in agreement that it's not a proven risk factor. People who use this belief as some kind of way to justify rape are absolute scum.

[QUOTE=luverofJ!93;52199341]So what is the problem with trying to critically expand the collective discussion on the deeper underlying cultural behaviors/messages that contribute to rape? "rape is bad and should be reduced" is the absolute bare bones most basic step in building consensus, but is no where near the level of public discourse we need to actually address problems which affect our society. The point of using a phrase like 'rape culture' is to be a broad general container to begin exploring difficult topics like "what kind of messages are we exposed to in our family life, or media that contribute to willingness to rape" or any other line of thought. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems what you really might be arguing is that some people abuse buzzwords like "rape culture" for very limited ends and misguided purposes. If that's what you're claiming then great, thats a valid contribution and we definitely need to talk about how to move past such things, but I'm sure you'll agree that itd be ridiculous to expect that we could make progress on such a thorny issue without advancing the very undeveloped collective understanding when it comes to things like this.[/QUOTE] Not only that but regardless of intentions, bringing up "rape culture" verbatim will automatically have the discussion devolve into bickering over semantics and whether there is such a thing at all, which is completely besides the point. It derails the discussion to very emotionally charged area and divides people into two sides who should be working together. So yeah my absolute bare bones step in building a consensus is better than this option. Even the article demonstrates this issue. Teacher says the idea of a rape culture is dubious, even though the issues are legit and people respond by reacting with their gut and getting offended. We probably don't even disagree about the real issue.