I've had the opinion that because they don't have to care about money, the artists at valve could afford to become extremely picky with what they release.
They aren't completely happy with how a project is going? Shelf it, come back later, it's not like they're gonna go out of business over it like any other game company of their scale. Their untiered working environment would go to encourage this picky behavior, with no managers to enforce their participation on a project.
I think that valve will release games, just at a much slower pace, due to them being able to avoid the crunch time, the deadlines, and the corporate mandates.
[QUOTE=Keychain;52183461]this is entirely subjective. if he wants to give valve a deadline then let him. it doesn't affect your ability to doubt valve all you want[/QUOTE]
If he wants to say "oh yeah in a year i'll stop believing in Valve if nothing happens" then that's his right by all means I'm just saying that's a ridiculous way to look at it cause it's completely arbitrary. Why a year? Why not two? Why not a decade? Why not one day? I'm not saying it affects my ability to doubt valve at all? I'm just saying setting arbitrary deadlines for Valve to act is ridiculous; they act on their own accord.
[QUOTE=xagnu;52179801]Simple, not everyone likes Dota or CS.[/QUOTE]
Simple. A Half Life multiplayer game (Again, from a franchise that has [I]no prior stake[/I] in the multiplayer industry) would not churn out [URL="http://store.steampowered.com/stats/"]iron man numbers like these[/URL] against established multiplayer IP's that have both been around for nearly decade[B]s[/B].
It wont work because Portal 2 didn't.
Remember when Valve was making Source 2? Probably dropping millions into developing this state of the art game engine....
Then they go and use fucking unity for their VR game. Great use of those resources guys!
[QUOTE=Cmx;52183806]Remember when Valve was making Source 2? Probably dropping millions into developing this state of the art game engine....
Then they go and use fucking unity for their VR game. Great use of those resources guys![/QUOTE]
That's because Source 2 has been outdated garbage since the day of release.
[QUOTE=t h e;52183367]Giving Valve a deadline like "20 year anniversary" and then you believe they don't are about making games they can't monetize is completely ridiculous and arbitrary. Either you believe they care about making games or they don't; saying they have a year, 5 years, or 1 day before you stop believing so seems ridiculous in my opinion. I've basically given up on HL3 being released anytime soon and I'm perfectly fine with it, Valve will release it when it's ready and if it's never ready then, well, shit, that sucks doesn't it[/QUOTE]
the 20 year anniversary isn't a deadline for the game to come out, it's a deadline to show they're making a game and haven't forgotten about the series that made them who they are. Valve is completely focused on Vr and cashcow games right now but a celebration on the 20th anniversary would renew my faith in them.
I don't even have to see any footage, they could just make a video that's pretty much a rehash of developer commentary and how their series has affected the gaming and inspired other developers and made the company from a small time studio made of ex-microsoft employees to the dominant power in PC gaming(and call out Blizzard like the opening to Lego Batman)
[QUOTE=Cmx;52183806]Remember when Valve was making Source 2? Probably dropping millions into developing this state of the art game engine....
Then they go and use fucking unity for their VR game. Great use of those resources guys![/QUOTE]
I remember when they announced that Source 2 would be "coming soon" after announcing it.
It's been almost 3 years since then, and any potential interest developers could've had with using the engine (mostly due to the strong lineage of the Source Engine) has now been wiped away, especially with engines like Unreal going free.
Yeah, you can technically use it to make Dota 2 content, or VR content with Destinations, but I'm talking about a fully fledged SDK akin to something like you'd currently get now with Source.
With Valve using Unity for some of their work now though, it makes me wonder if we'll soon be in a future where AAA devs will just start turning towards Unity or Unreal for their games. I mean even Nintendo has put out some games made in Unity, and states they've "fully mastered Unreal."
[QUOTE=General J;52183607]Simple. A Half Life multiplayer game (Again, from a franchise that has [I]no prior stake[/I] in the multiplayer industry) would not churn out [URL="http://store.steampowered.com/stats/"]iron man numbers like these[/URL] against established multiplayer IP's that have both been around for nearly decade[B]s[/B].
It wont work because Portal 2 didn't.[/QUOTE]
What an inane comparison, Portal 2 is a puzzle game with content that has minimal replayability. It has no MP function in the context of titles like Dota or CS.
Moreover, no one said anything about achieving equivalent success to Dota or CS, only that it would make additional money over the already nigh-guaranteed success of a HL3 and would appeal to audiences that might not enjoy current offerings.
HL2DM had the potential to go somewhere, but was outright abandoned by Valve. Given how things have changed since the release of HL2/HL2DM, I don't see why Valve couldn't make a fleshed out HL3DM that enjoys a sizable audience providing it was given continued support and investment like their other contemporary MP titles.
[QUOTE=xagnu;52184394]What an inane comparison, Portal 2 is a puzzle game with content that has minimal replayability. It has no MP function in the context of titles like Dota or CS.
Moreover, no one said anything about achieving equivalent success to Dota or CS, only that it would make additional money over the already nigh-guaranteed success of a HL3 and would appeal to audiences that might not enjoy current offerings.
HL2DM had the potential to go somewhere, but was outright abandoned by Valve. Given how things have changed since the release of HL2/HL2DM, I don't see why Valve couldn't make a fleshed out HL3DM that enjoys a sizable audience providing it was given continued support and investment like their other contemporary MP titles.[/QUOTE]
These arguments are hopeful, but boil down to the idea that Valve is still a company that cares about making games. An idea which there has been no evidence to support other than fan hope for the last four years (for [I]any[/I] release) and six years (for an inspired true-to-heart "Valve Game Experience" release.)
Half Life, and Left 4 Dead are pretty much Valve's only [I]original[/I] ideas. Everything else has been bought and absorbed from successful 3rd party mods or projects. (Even Portal too!) Not to imply this is malicious, but it's factually a core aspect of how Valve runs. They like to look at what works at either go from there, or directly [I]buy[/I] something from there. And when it stops working? Completely abandon it. (HL2DM like you mentioned, among other things.)
Which brings me to my last point. Check back at that steam stats link I linked. KOTH multiplayer battle arenas are generally an untapped market, and are kind of a rising gold rush in genre right now.
Third person shooter with avatar customization potential? (Loot Boxes) Players will be more attached to their characters since they can see themselves during gameplay.
Active playerbase is nearly [I]1/2[/I] of CS:GO and [I]4x[/I] Team Fortress 2?
If Valve had any motivation left to make a new game, I wouldn't be surprised if they set their targets there.
These words hurt me as a major Half Life fan but it's part of the healing process. However, if Valve announces a new, non-VR game with no cosmetics or care for the "formula", I'll PayPal you enough cash for a Subway footlong. :toxx:
[QUOTE=General J;52184538]These arguments are hopeful, but boil down to the idea that Valve is still a company that cares about making games. An idea which there has been no evidence to support other than fan hope for the last four years (for [I]any[/I] release) and six years (for an inspired true-to-heart "Valve Game Experience" release.)[/quote]
There have been numerous leaks that hint they're working on a number of projects, to say they're not interested in making games is just the popular circlejerk that surrounds Valve right now. [I]Releasing[/I] games on the other hand, sure - they might have some issues there; but even then I think they've debunked that argument.
[QUOTE=General J;52184538]
Half Life, and Left 4 Dead are pretty much Valve's only [I]original[/I] ideas. Everything else has been bought and absorbed from successful 3rd party mods or projects. (Even Portal too!) Not to imply this is malicious, but it's factually a core aspect of how Valve runs. They like to look at what works at either go from there, or directly [I]buy[/I] something from there.[/quote]
Left 4 Dead is TRS's baby, born from knife-only bot matches in CS:S when TRS made content for that game. That aside, it's rather unfair to act like Portal is 3rd-party in origin, the mechanic certainly may be but everything that makes Portal what it is came from Valve.
[QUOTE=General J;52184538] And when it stops working? Completely abandon it. (HL2DM like you mentioned, among other things.)[/quote]
Again that's a rather unfair statement as HL2DM was abandoned before Valve had really pioneered the continued free content update "model" with TF2. And never really was intended to be something especially significant.
[QUOTE=General J;52184538]
These words hurt me as a major Half Life fan but it's part of the healing process. However, if Valve announces a new, non-VR game with no cosmetics or care for the "formula", I'll PayPal you enough cash for a Subway footlong. :toxx:[/QUOTE]
I realise it goes against the tenets of being forum-cool, but the reality is people enjoy cosmetics; so why would they intentionally make a game without them? Just because they're a profitable market doesn't make them any less of a feature.
[QUOTE=General J;52184538]These arguments are hopeful, but boil down to the idea that Valve is still a company that cares about making games. An idea which there has been no evidence to support other than fan hope for the last four years (for [I]any[/I] release) and six years (for an inspired true-to-heart "Valve Game Experience" release.)
These words hurt me as a major Half Life fan but it's part of the healing process. However, if Valve announces a new, non-VR game with no cosmetics or care for the "formula", I'll PayPal you enough cash for a Subway footlong. :toxx:[/QUOTE]
It's a company that's mostly made up of game developers. Almost a hundred of them, IIRC. That all of those people are sitting around pushing out small updates for DOTA2 or CSGO doesn't seem plausible.
Anyway. Your argument is essentially that since there's no news of games, there are no new games. That's not a given. Especially when considering how Valve as a developer is an outlier in two ways.
They don't have the financial obligations that affect how all other developers operate. Instead Valve has effectively unlimited funding and don't seem to care about production budgets, that much is evidenced by the interview with Jeri Ellsworth.
[quote]“Why would I divert my career to do this thing? But then he took me to the fourth floor and said, ‘This is your floor. You have a budget of whatever you need. We’re sitting on piles of money. Hire all your cohorts. Make a dream team.’”
[...]
When she returned home, Ellsworth spent a week thinking about it. Then she went back to Newell with her own proposal, asking for a team of one-third researchers, one-third rapid prototypers and one-third product people. Newell agreed to it all.
[...]
“The latitude they give their employees is pretty amazing.”[/quote]
What's also evident in the Jeri Ellsworth interview is their pendant for experimentation just to see where it leads, with much of it not leading anywhere. The Final Hours of Portal 2 also gives insight into this mindset. We also know of games that they developed and then ditched without ever telling the public, discovered by accident.
It's best put by [url=https://www.theverge.com/2012/4/13/2947088/valve-reveals-secret-hardware-project-wearable-computing]Michael Abrash[/url]:
[quote]The Valve approach is to do experiments and see what we learn – failure is fine, just so long as we can identify failure quickly, learn from it, and move on – and then apply it to the next experiment. The process is very fast-moving and iterative, and we’re just at the start. How far and where the investigation goes depends on what we learn.[/quote]
This development mentality, combined with leaks, statements from individual Valve developers and Gabe's AMA about new games, and the fact that dozens and dozens of headhunted game artists aren't likely to be sitting idly on their asses, is why I don't think it makes sense to talk about Valve as a company that doesn't care about making games and why it doesn't make sense to equate no news of games with no new games. Yes, their priorities have diversified, but that's just a natural evolution of the company.
They aren't doing anything now that isn't in line with the beliefs and philosophies espoused by them in the past, and the people who think so haven't been following closely enough.
Also, how come everyone is always on about how they're hurt as a Half-Life fan. I've been playing these games since 2000, and still use them on a damn-near daily basis in one way or the other, but my life isn't worse without HL3 in it. I'm fascinated by this mentality that someone's feelings are hurt because they're lacking something they never had to begin with.
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;52183815]That's because Source 2 has been outdated garbage since the day of release.[/QUOTE]
Has it ever actually released?
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52184679]Has it ever actually released?[/QUOTE]
Dota 2 uses Source 2, and to my knowledge nobody has ever stated that it's "not the full Source 2", if that makes sense. It feels like that's the case, and I really really hope that's the case, but it doesn't seem like it.
[QUOTE=Chrille;52184676]It's a company that's mostly made up of game developers. Almost a hundred of them, IIRC. That all of those people are sitting around pushing out small updates for DOTA2 or CSGO doesn't seem plausible.
Anyway. Your argument is essentially that since there's no news of games, there are no new games. That's not a given. Especially when considering how Valve as a developer is an outlier in two ways.
They don't have the financial obligations that affect how all other developers operate. Instead Valve has effectively unlimited funding and don't seem to care about production budgets, that much is evidenced by the interview with Jeri Ellsworth.[/quote]
I think valve is in this perpetual cycle of prototype-scrap, sure they are making things but when nothing is shipped it might as well not exist.
[quote]Also, how come everyone is always on about how they're hurt as a Half-Life fan. I've been playing these games since 2000, and still use them on a damn-near daily basis in one way or the other, but my life isn't worse without HL3 in it. I'm fascinated by this mentality that someone's feelings are hurt because they're lacking something they never had to begin with.[/QUOTE]
Its like Valve came in to give you a great high five, then when are just about to slam those hands together Valve walks out of the room leaving you hanging.
[QUOTE=Cmx;52184991]I think valve is in this perpetual cycle of prototype-scrap, sure they are making things but when nothing is shipped it might as well not exist.[/QUOTE]
The turret factory in Portal was just a metaphor for Valve. The parts are forged, turrets is assembled, defective designs are thrown out, the final designed is boxed up and sent straight to the incinerator for melting down, so that new parts can be forged.
[QUOTE=Cmx;52184991]
Its like Valve came in to give you a great high five, then when are just about to slam those hands together Valve walks out of the room leaving you hanging.[/QUOTE]
I like to imagine it like they went to high five you but put noclip on and just kept walking, leaving themselves unable to be 'touched'.
An appropriate mental visualization because they refused for a decade to say a single damn thing about the only franchise I care about that they've made.
[QUOTE=Cmx;52184991]I think valve is in this perpetual cycle of prototype-scrap, sure they are making things but when nothing is shipped it might as well not exist. [/QUOTE]
Sure, but you can't say "True, they may be trying to make a lot of games but just aren't shipping anything" and at the same time say "They don't care about making games at all!!!". That makes literally no sense! Most people seem to have this mindset that for some reason, since we don't know what is going on behind the closed doors of Valve's unusual development facility, we can dictate what Valve's interests are despite multiple accounts of development processes and interviews saying otherwise. If it's not clear what I'm saying: we have no idea what Valve is doing other than their released/updated projects, so it's not fair to objectively speak for Valve. Valve didn't release anything in years between Half-Life and the next Source game but it didn't mean they weren't creating a new engine and multiple new games for it, did it?
[quote]Its like Valve came in to give you a great high five, then when are just about to slam those hands together Valve walks out of the room leaving you hanging.[/quote]
Except it's not. Amounting high-quality innovative game production from a high-standard company to an act of a high-five is just inaccurate. If I were to add onto this strange simile, it would be like Valve walks out of the room to leave you hanging because they want to come back with an even better, and greater high-five. Yes, a strange addition but this was a strange simile to begin with, and I hope you see my point.
Valve's biggest problem was that they let their employees move around at will. They could work on a project they wanted to, and if they got bored with it, leave and start on another project.
This would mean that only someone who was fully invested in that title would bother sticking with it. You can't have team meetings if your team is in constant flux.
[QUOTE=Ridge;52192057]Valve's biggest problem was that they let their employees move around at will. They could work on a project they wanted to, and if they got bored with it, leave and start on another project.
This would mean that only someone who was fully invested in that title would bother sticking with it. You can't have team meetings if your team is in constant flux.[/QUOTE]
Would agree because if they were mandated to work on X project and complete it by Y time, they could churn out games. But, the way they have it set up is more beneficial to the [I]game[/I], I think. Because with them moving around at-will, when something finally clicks and it becomes a going-to-happen thing, you wind up with much better experiences. Like Half-Life and Portal level immersion. Or L4D amounts of fun.
[QUOTE=Ridge;52192057]Valve's biggest problem was that they let their employees move around at will. They could work on a project they wanted to, and if they got bored with it, leave and start on another project.
This would mean that only someone who was fully invested in that title would bother sticking with it. You can't have team meetings if your team is in constant flux.[/QUOTE]
Thats not as much a problem per-se as it is a potential huge benefit with a massive trade off. It means any project that does come out is likely entirely derived from passion and love, which shows, but obviously also takes far far longer due to any lack of executive mandates or hierarchy, so they can be leisurely about it.
[QUOTE=Ridge;52192057]Valve's biggest problem was that they let their employees move around at will. They could work on a project they wanted to, and if they got bored with it, leave and start on another project.
This would mean that only someone who was fully invested in that title would bother sticking with it. You can't have team meetings if your team is in constant flux.[/QUOTE]
You may think it's Valve's biggest problem, but that's how we've gotten any games we've gotten today; if Valve had a more normal structure we wouldn't be getting any of the games we've gotten before nor would we have the same quality of games. People think their structure is an issue but it's what's made them so successful as a company in the first place producing the games we love
[QUOTE=t h e;52192198]You may think it's Valve's biggest problem, but that's how we've gotten any games we've gotten today; if Valve had a more normal structure we wouldn't be getting any of the games we've gotten before nor would we have the same quality of games. People think their structure is an issue but it's what's made them so successful as a company in the first place producing the games we love[/QUOTE]
Back then however they were smaller and didn't have this many projects, especially ones they needed to maintain. I think the problem is either their structure doesn't scale well or they need more people or both. They're not even 400 people and doing lord knows how many things if we count unannounced stuff.
[QUOTE=Ridge;52192057]Valve's biggest problem was that they let their employees move around at will. They could work on a project they wanted to, and if they got bored with it, leave and start on another project.
This would mean that only someone who was fully invested in that title would bother sticking with it. You can't have team meetings if your team is in constant flux.[/QUOTE]
"Hey, you were supposed to be in the Monday meeting."
"Yeah, but i just didn't feel like it."
[QUOTE=Coyoteze;52184731]Dota 2 uses Source 2, and to my knowledge nobody has ever stated that it's "not the full Source 2", if that makes sense. It feels like that's the case, and I really really hope that's the case, but it doesn't seem like it.[/QUOTE]
iirc Destinations has more S2 features (like dynamic breaking glass etc)
[QUOTE=i_speel_good;52193868]iirc Destinations has more S2 features (like dynamic breaking glass etc)[/QUOTE]
Dynamic breaking glass isn't exactly a revolutionizing feature, so I wouldn't say that's in S2's favor. Its a bit like getting a sloppy crayon-drawing from an adult. You kind of expect something... better.
[QUOTE=Coyoteze;52193915]Dynamic breaking glass isn't exactly a revolutionizing feature, so I wouldn't say that's in S2's favor. Its a bit like getting a sloppy crayon-drawing from an adult. You kind of expect something... better.[/QUOTE]
That's what I was saying earlier in this thread.
Source 2 is far, far behind UE4, Unity, and CryEngine/Lumberyard and they will never catch up. (Plus no indie support unlike every other engine??)
Maybe Source 3 will be competitive, but as it is it's barely an upgrade and out-of-date at launch, let alone now.
I think it's part of why Valve isn't serious about HL3. Valve only releases main-line Half-Life games when they can innovate and really push the genre, and you can't be the top when your game engine makes your games uglier and more limited than the competition right out of the gate.
I'd even bet that Source had a hand in killing EP3 during initial development. Source is far from useful for wide-open snowy environments and Episode 2 was already dated looking.
[QUOTE=t h e;52192198]You may think it's Valve's biggest problem, but that's how we've gotten any games we've gotten today; if Valve had a more normal structure we wouldn't be getting any of the games we've gotten before nor would we have the same quality of games. People think their structure is an issue but it's what's made them so successful as a company in the first place producing the games we love[/QUOTE]
Valve hasn't released a game in 4 years, though. And to do that release, they simply hired the guy who made the mod it was based off of.
I just want Valve to release something that I can actually PLAY instead of "free" demos for a £700 peripheral that I don't even have enough space to use.
[QUOTE=Ridge;52194139]Valve hasn't released a game in 4 years, though. And to do that release, they simply hired the guy who made the mod it was based off of.[/QUOTE]
I very much doubt Icefrog joined Valve to sit in a room himself making Dota 2
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