New London £10 a day "Toxic" charge comes into force for older cars - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Radical_ed;52811316]If you think this is dumb you care more about cool cars than children not dying slow and horrible deaths.[/QUOTE] Or maybe we realize that it's pretty fuckin' dumb to force people to buy cars they can't afford?

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;52811374]i think if revenues from this fine were used to subsidize the purchase of new or used cars which fit their emissions standards, it would feel less counter-intuitive and would likely have a better effect in general.[/QUOTE] So use money from higher fines generated from the people using older cars to subsidize newer cars for the same people they are fining? How does that make any sense at all? It would make more sense to just not fine them in the first place. The main problem is newer cars being more expensive. Don't you think that people would have newer cars already if they could afford them? I would love to own a car that isn't 30 years old but I just can't afford it, gas prices are already hard hitting enough, but if that wasn't already such a strain paying that much money per day just for the ability to drive my car would just put me further away from being able to afford a new one.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52811670]Cars are probably only a small fraction of London's problem, but it's easier to go after them than the polluting industries that pay for your politics :^)[/QUOTE] no, cars are a sizable portion of the pollution issue in London - diesel is especially bad for it the one that London frequently breaks the laws on is NO2. [editline]23rd October 2017[/editline] like, the implementation here is bad because it won't help people get more fuel efficient cars, however, the goal of reducing the pollution caused by cars is essential

[QUOTE=iownuall;52812484]So use money from higher fines generated from the people using older cars to subsidize newer cars for the same people they are fining? How does that make any sense at all? It would make more sense to just not fine them in the first place. The main problem is newer cars being more expensive. Don't you think that people would have newer cars already if they could afford them? I would love to own a car that isn't 30 years old but I just can't afford it, gas prices are already hard hitting enough, but if that wasn't already such a strain paying that much money per day just for the ability to drive my car would just put me further away from being able to afford a new one.[/QUOTE] In London people use their cars so little. At work we have a attorney living in Greenwich, and her husband also works at some fancy hotel and makes loads of money. They have a multi million pound house. But because they use their car so little it's just some shitbox from the late 90s. I would agree that this wouldn't be good if it applied to all of the UK. But it doesn't. It applies to a rich area of London, with amazing transportation options. I would also note that the vast majority of people objecting here are Americans.

[QUOTE=Clive;52811966]What's wrong with Buses? I get that they are big machines but they are far better than cars in terms of passengers to emissions.[/QUOTE] This really depends on which bus and their timetable. I travel on buses almost everyday, and there are reasons why people would rather drive. For example: I have a weird bus timetable that doesn't suit me, my bus comes mostly late, sometimes they get cancelled without notification, most of the time all the seats are taken and the bus is completely crowded also it takes longer for me to arrive at my destination through using bus than driving. I would rather drive if I could, but taking that bus seems to be my only cheapest option.

[QUOTE=TestECull;52812474]Or maybe we realize that it's pretty fuckin' dumb to force people to buy cars they can't afford?[/QUOTE] How are they being forced though? You are not forced to sit in traffic for hours with the engine idling, to do a journey that could take 30 minutes by public transport - that is a choice. No one is forcing anyone to buy a £40,000 tesla to get to their workplace 3 miles away.

Here in America we have more cars than people and our problems with pollution are just about gone since more efficient standards have been set in place, and all cars have catalytic converters. Our country is fine without having to go nuclear on cars.

[QUOTE=Savage Octane;52812867]Here in America we have more cars than people and our problems with pollution are just about gone since more efficient standards have been set in place, and all cars have catalytic converters. Our country is fine without having to go nuclear on cars.[/QUOTE] The US is a bit better off thanks to never going big on diesel. But ~150,000 people a year are still dying prematurely due to air quality issues. Plus passenger cars in the US are a huge issue in terms of climate change. Electrification has to happen in the USA at some point soon. Though you probably don't have to take as drastic action as the UK.

[QUOTE=bluemist;52812792]This really depends on which bus and their timetable. I travel on buses almost everyday, and there are reasons why people would rather drive. For example: I have a weird bus timetable that doesn't suit me, my bus comes mostly late, sometimes they get cancelled without notification, most of the time all the seats are taken and the bus is completely crowded also it takes longer for me to arrive at my destination through using bus than driving. I would rather drive if I could, but taking that bus seems to be my only cheapest option.[/QUOTE] I can see where you are coming from on that point of view before I could drive I would take the bus too and sometimes they are shit but I think for the amount of people that you can get in them compared to the same amount of people you can get in a car they are far better for the emissions.

Honestly being a tourist to London I don't see why you would really drive their to begin with unless its for business. I found it fairly easy to get around the city with public transportation. That being said I hope this never catches on here, I drive my children killing shit box not because I enjoy it but its basically impossible to afford anything nice with crippling student debt :v:

[QUOTE=Snoberry Tea;52811627]Also applying the fine as a blanket on all 06 and older cars is stupid.[/QUOTE] it's not a blanket fine on all old cars, it's based on emissions [quote=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41695116]From Monday 23 October, there is a £10 daily fee for those who drive more polluting vehicles in the congestion charging zone, on top of the existing £11.50 congestion charge. [B]Vehicles that do not comply with the Euro IV exhaust standard must pay the £10 charge.[/B] The standard defines emissions limits for cars, vans, buses, coaches and lorries. Most vehicles registered before 2006 are likely to exceed these limits.[/quote] [quote=https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/emissions-surcharge/emissions-surcharge-checker]Euro emission standards For newer vehicles, the Euro emission standard may be listed on the V5C in section D.2. [B]If your vehicle meets the required Euro emission standard, it will also meet the required T-Charge standard.[/B] The T-Charge standard is: Euro 3 for quadricycles or motorised tricycles (motorcycles are not subject to the T-Charge) [B] Euro 4 for cars, vans and minibuses[/B] Euro IV for HGVs, buses and coaches[/quote] if your old car meets the standards (mine does, heh), then you're golden

[QUOTE=iownuall;52812484]So use money from higher fines generated from the people using older cars to subsidize newer cars for the same people they are fining? How does that make any sense at all? It would make more sense to just not fine them in the first place. The main problem is newer cars being more expensive. Don't you think that people would have newer cars already if they could afford them? I would love to own a car that isn't 30 years old but I just can't afford it, gas prices are already hard hitting enough, but if that wasn't already such a strain paying that much money per day just for the ability to drive my car would just put me further away from being able to afford a new one.[/QUOTE] i don't really agree with a fine being put in place at all, but i think if there [i]has[/i] to be one the revenues generated should go back into promoting greener vehicles

[QUOTE=Zay333;52811745]I recognize the issue that the air in London is horrible but all this is doing is fucking over people who need a car but can't afford a better/newer one.[/QUOTE] if you cant afford a car made past 2006 and you still want to live in central london, i think you have bigger problems

AT LAST A smart country doing the correct economics measures! It was time for negative externalities to be taxed! I'm glad the UK has started implementing these measures. Hopefully they'll go further and look what other things affect society negatively in the way of contamination and tax them.

[QUOTE=rampageturke 2;52811927]The buses and taxis need to be tackled more than the regular car. But Khan won't do that[/QUOTE] I think it might be time for you to actually go down to London and see what they're running instead of sitting up north with us, were most of our bus fleets are outdated as fuck or rely on diesel because they have to undergo long distance trips between multiple towns. Mostly all of London's bus fleet is now hybrids, which go completely EV when they're running under 15mph, which is what they're doing most of the time around central London. And as stated before, the Black Cabs are being phased out with new EVs as well, there was a big development bid going for those with multiple different companies pushing to win the contract, hell fucking Tesla was in on at one stage. In the end the choice was to keep it home built and keep LEVC (the company that builds the classic black cabs) in the running. If you wanna know what we're gonna start seeing running around London, LEVC entered a prototype TX in this years' Goodwood Festival of Speed and [url=https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/london-taxi-companys-electrified-cab-makes-dynamic-debut-video]it did pretty damn well[/url]. And if you want, [url=http://www.levc.com/]you can buy yourself one[/url].

[QUOTE=Savage Octane;52812346]What's with Europe's hate boner for cars recently?[/QUOTE] It's not a hate boner for cars, it's a boner for clean air

[QUOTE=Clive;52811552]It mainly applies to cars registered before 2006, these days you could scrap your old car or part exchange it for like £500 and add £200 - £300 to that to get a 2007 car, it's pretty cheap.[/QUOTE] Basically cash for clunkers, but even worse? Yeah, let me go ahead and sell my old A3 TDI from 17 years ago, to buy a younger [b]piece of shit[/b] that will probably be unreliable as fuck by comparison, netting me huge expenses when something breaks down, and that possibly also spends more fuel aswell. Heck, I sure love to lose money, which I would start doing so the very moment I got rid of my car in any way shape or form. But hey this is more related towards me and not someone who lives in London.

[QUOTE=Strontboer;52812243]First of all let me state that I agree that this is a real issue. However I really don't agree with your argument....it's a matter of preference and fun. Why wear nice clothes when you can just buy the cheapest stuff around, why have nice food when you can just eat bread? Not everything has to be practical, some things are are just because their nice.[/QUOTE] If someone owns something nice because it's nice and the nice thing has negative externalities, why should they not be fully willing to foot that bill?

Perhaps a couple of years ago I'd be with everyone claiming this is a ridiculous policy that unfairly penalises drivers but then I moved to London. When I get off the tube at Angel (a busy intersection just outside this new T-Charge) I can FEEL the air quality worsen as breathing becomes more difficult. When I visit my parents up north, it's noticeably easier to breathe just sitting around indoors, the shit in the air gets everywhere here. The worst though was when I had to go to Ealing one time. Walking past a junction on the high street I started coughing, breathing became laboured and I started to feel asthmatic. My last asthma episode was 12 years ago. I don't care if a business loses £10 a day. I don't care if someone loses their personal car (why tf do they even have a car in central anyway). I don't care if it makes life harder for some. The air quality here is a genuine crisis and any policy that tackles even a small part of it needs to be welcomed by all because people are dying every day from this and it bloody well feels like it.

[QUOTE=Megadave;52811518]Cool cars come in diesel?[/QUOTE] I was looking at a 1982 Mercedes Turbodiesel the other day. It had ~250,000 miles but it looked fucking mint. It was pretty cool

[QUOTE=Radical_ed;52818476]If someone owns something nice because it's nice and the nice thing has negative externalities, why should they not be fully willing to foot that bill?[/QUOTE] I think he was replying to [QUOTE=Clive;52811345]it's just stupid when people own cars with engines that they don't really need. What's the point. You car can do 0 to 60 in 4 seconds? Great, when would that be useful, top speed of 160mph? I bet you can't wait to go on the motorway so you can do 70mph...pointless.[/QUOTE] which is a dumb thing to say. stront never said anything about footing the bill.