American Man Gives Nazi Salute in Germany, Gets Punched in the Face - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;52568873]What? Privatized? Venezuela has state control of almost everything by this point. And they basically made the food production run into the ground by importing food via the state and then selling it at a lower price than which the local producers can afford to sell, making them lose income.[/QUOTE] state run is still capitalist, state capitalism to be exact

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52568859]The socialists tend to do that, historically.[/QUOTE] If you conveniently ignore the part where those countries were driven to extremes by the US government screwing them over, sure. For a country that claims to love freedom and democracy so much we do have a history of knocking over democraticly elected socialist and installing regimes or getting pissy when people remove their puppet dictators. See: The ousting of President Jacobo Árbenz from Guatamala, refusing to recognize Cuba after they disposed Fulgencio Batista.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52568859]You phrased that in a very loaded way. Of course I believe social hierarchy can be smoothed out to a "varying degree", but what degree? The socialists tend to do that, historically.[/QUOTE] Do you think that people who want collectivism [I]intend[/I] to go out and set up an authoritarian dictatorship, like Maduro? Or do you think that maybe power corrupts, and the interim socialist states that get established have a very strong tendency to collapse into authoritarian regimes under state communism? Communism has a [I]very[/I] strong tendency to collapse into authoritarianism, but it rarely is set out to be authoritarian, because the entire idea of end-game communism is that everyone is equal and that nobody has significant power to exploit others, at least through the acquisition of capital, because capital would be abolished. I think it's a noble end goal, even if it is literally impossible. The far-right does a very different thing - they [I]idolize[/I] authoritarianism. Far-right nazis don't "collapse" into authoritarianism, they seek it out from the start. The intent of a fascist is to be authoritarian. They don't want equality, they want to leverage inequalities into power, and to mobilize that power to gain control of the state to further their own wealth and success. There's a notable difference in the intent of these two groups. One wants absolute equality, one wants power. The power that comes as a result of seeking absolute equality consistently corrupts people, which is why communism is impossible - but at least they don't [I]start out[/I] with the goal of fuck you, got mine, kill the jews.

[QUOTE=millan;52568869]Did you guys notice that [I]every time[/I] when there's a debate about reprimands of the far right, some posters feel the need to make it into a debate about how the left isn't any better at all and it's wrong that it's not getting reprimanded as well, or instead? :thinking: It's literally like preschool kids throwing a fit and responding to critique with "well, but that other guy, he's [B]no better than me, see?[/B]".[/QUOTE] Maybe the fact that the communists always come out of the woodwork when that happens and say "see how much better we are" has something to do with it

[QUOTE=.Isak.;52568829]Horseshoe theory is a massive, massive oversimplification of a very complex set of political values, tactics, governing styles, government organization, leadership, economics, religion, identity - the only thing it explains is that both the right-wing and the left-wing can be authoritarian.[/QUOTE] Horseshoe theory is also a massive cop-out thrown around almost exclusively by the alt-right and those who don't explicitly oppose them as a means to paint "the left" as some bigger bad, some problematic "Other" to be dealt with. Usually seeing someone bring it up without a single hint of irony acts as a good sign that they probably aren't worth debating with, they clearly don't understand the nuance of actual politics and instead fall back to memes spread by losers trying to make their "side" look even remotely less reprehensible.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52568928]Maybe the fact that the communists always come out of the woodwork when that happens and say "see how much better we are" has something to do with it[/QUOTE] Care to point me to the communism and left wing related posts before this one, which kicked off this derail? [QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52568542]I wonder if people here would feel the same about someone punching a communist in the face. It's a legitimate question.[/QUOTE] I see only people arguing they are glad the guy got punched in the face, with literally zero implication that they are left wing or that they are better for it.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52568928]Maybe the fact that the communists always come out of the woodwork when that happens and say "see how much better we are" has something to do with it[/QUOTE] Idk you're the one who keeps trying to bring up communists... Seriously, Nazis shouldn't be compared to the left-right political spectrum. Anybody on any political spectrum can agree that Genocide and Racism is horrible. I dont even think this needs to be political, Anybody with a normal conscious and a sense of empathy knows that Genocide is fucking terrible.

[QUOTE=millan;52568951]I see only people arguing they are glad the guy got punched in the face, with literally zero implication that they are left wing or that they are better for it.[/QUOTE] People seem to constantly mistake "I don't really feel bad for the guy" as "I explicitly approve of violence against those I disagree with" anyways. I don't feel remotely bad that this guy got punched in the face. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. It's pretty difficult to sympathize with someone doing something so blatantly stupid when even if you're not aware that that shit is illegal in Germany (which is pretty common fact) simple common sense should tell you that people in Germany might just be a tad sensitive about the whole Nazi thing. That said, the guy who did the punching is still in the wrong. But doing a Nazi salute in the middle of freaking Germany is going to provoke people and anyone who thinks otherwise is incredibly naive at best.

[QUOTE=JackDestiny;52568586]If you do this kind of stuff in Germany you're basically saying "I don't give a shit about your country and disregard everything you did in the last 70 years". Americans should know better to not use the N word in front of someone who might get triggered by it.[/QUOTE] This is a very good comparison. Even the Americans very particular about freedom of speech would unlikely defend someone who, say, starts shouting "nigger" around black people, drunk or not.

[QUOTE=343N;52568384]but, free speech? is it ok to hit someone just because something is subjectively very offensive?[/QUOTE] Just because you have the right to say something doesn't mean you can't get punched for saying it

[QUOTE=343N;52568384]but, free speech? is it ok to hit someone just because something is subjectively very offensive?[/QUOTE] Germany doesn't have the same free speech the U.S. has Why are you even bringing it up and how is a nazi salute not something that could be considered universally offensive to most people? [editline]13th August 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52568576]Explain? Last I checked a large majority of the people at the recent rally in Virginia just stood around and yelled a bunch.[/QUOTE] Neo-Nazi's aren't real nazi's

[QUOTE=343N;52568384]but, free speech? is it ok to hit someone just because something is subjectively very offensive?[/QUOTE] I dunno about "OK", but if you're gonna do something so absolutely knobbish as doing the Nazi salute in Germany, I say you shouldn't be surprised when you get some sense knocked back into you.

[QUOTE=J!NX;52569090]Germany doesn't have the same free speech the U.S. has Why are you even bringing it up and how is a nazi salute not something that could be considered universally offensive to most people?[/QUOTE] Even if it was in the US rather than Germany his point really doesn't have a leg to stand on. Provocative actions are not protected under the first amendment and it wouldn't be a particularly huge challenge to convince a judge that doing a Nazi salute around a bunch of Germans is a provocative action.

The guy deserves to be in jail for violating German anti-Nazi laws, as many others who so stupidly think it's funny to do the Nazi salute in places like the Reichstag (German Parliament) have ended up, but punching someone in the face is assault, unless they assaulted you first. The passerby should have called the police, not punched him.

As a proud leftist, I say "Don't punch people". You don't reduce politics and discussion to the use of fists. That doesn't solve attitudes and underlying beliefs.

[QUOTE=RB33;52569374]As a proud leftist, I say "Don't punch people". You don't reduce politics and discussion to the use of fists. That doesn't solve attitudes and underlying beliefs.[/QUOTE] Usually I'd agree but doing the Nazi Salute for no reason isn't exactly a political statement or discussion. That one Alt-right guy who got punched months ago I disagree with, but this? Eh.

[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;52569379]Usually I'd agree but doing the Nazi Salute for no reason isn't exactly a political statement or discussion. That one Alt-right guy who got punched months ago I disagree with, but this? Eh.[/QUOTE] Punching people escalates what's acceptable in politics and can make further violence possible. Also if someone hasn't touched you or anyone else, let them be.

[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;52569379]Usually I'd agree but doing the Nazi Salute for no reason isn't exactly a political statement or discussion. That one Alt-right guy who got punched months ago I disagree with, but this? Eh.[/QUOTE] If you legitimately think that it's okay to assault people because they do stupid things that do not cause physical harm to people then you need to seriously re-evaluate your morals. This man was assaulted, and that is not okay. He should be in jail, yes, but he should not have been assaulted. Justifying violence against people for ideological reasons is why America is having such a shitfit with antifa/the alt-right now, because both sides seem to think it's okay to assault people they disagree with to "send a message that we're not pussies" or some other stupid bullshit. It's not. Assaulting someone who has not committed a violent act is a crime, and should not be justified, condoned, or ignored. Just because the guy was being a racist, and quite frankly based on this story I doubt he's even a Nazi, he probably got really drunk and thought it'd be funny or some stupid shit, doesn't mean that he doesn't have rights too, and one of those rights is not to be assaulted.

I dunno, I don't think the guy doing the nazi salute should be in jail, nor do I think he should be assaulted for what he did, on the other hand I don't really mind that he got punched but I'm not gonna go out of my way to justify it.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52569411]I dunno, I don't think the guy doing the nazi salute should be in jail[/QUOTE] This depends entirely on the country. In America I'd agree, because there are no laws preventing it, but in Germany there are laws about this kind of thing. Tourists have been arrested for doing Nazi salutes in Berlin several times. When you travel somewhere, you have to abide by their laws, even if you disagree with them. He violated German law, he should therefore go to German jail.

[QUOTE=DaCommie1;52569420]This depends entirely on the country. In America I'd agree, because there are no laws preventing it, but in Germany there are laws about this kind of thing. Tourists have been arrested for doing Nazi salutes in Berlin several times. When you travel somewhere, you have to abide by their laws, even if you disagree with them. He violated German law, he should therefore go to German jail.[/QUOTE] I'd say he should be warned or at most prosecuted and fined, but it's up to legal authorities.

[QUOTE=343N;52568390]he deserves it because he said something offensive? i don't think it's right we can punch people because something is offensive [I]enough[/I], then where do we draw the line where we say 'you're offended enough, so it's ok to hit him'[/QUOTE] no you're not getting it, it's literally illegal in germany and, not for nothing, nazism is something that any rational person can agree is objectively bad/offensive. he's lucky it was just a punch and not jailtime or worse.

Considering the article says he only suffered "minor injuries" I don't think he got the shit beat out of him. Probably just got punched once, fell on his ass, and then the guy who punched him left. People get punched for being a knob in public all the time. I don't see why you'd want to defend the guy because he happened to be being a knob by doing the Nazi salute, let alone in Germany of all places.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52568928]Maybe the fact that the communists always come out of the woodwork when that happens and say "see how much better we are" has something to do with it[/QUOTE] When did anyone even do that though. [editline]13th August 2017[/editline] The closest thing I can find to what you claim is that communism doesn't rely on racial or ethnic superiority as opposed to Nazism. The only reason we are on this tangent is because someone said that people would be singing a different tune if it was a Communist getting punched, which I think is pretty dumb considering how little loved communism is on FP.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;52569496]When did anyone even do that though. [editline]13th August 2017[/editline] The closest thing I can find to what you claim is that communism doesn't rely on racial or ethnic superiority as opposed to Nazism. The only reason we are on this tangent is because someone said that people would be singing a different tune if it was a Communist getting punched, which I think is pretty dumb considering how little loved communism is on FP.[/QUOTE] Kinda funny how this is part of the discussion...since Communist and socialist groups probably had a much worse time existing in the US in comparison to far-right groups.

[QUOTE=Teddybeer;52569635]Numbers got inflated when people here decided pacifism is a gateway drug to nazism. Likey fucking hell the last few days people are advocating for violence and I'm sickened that none of those got banned for it.[/QUOTE] Blame alt-rights's recently emergent confusing ability to simultaneously sympathise with literal genocidal regimes historically based on exploiting and violating democratic principles yet at the same time making constant appeals to good manners and humane handling when somebody confronts them about it.

[QUOTE=Teddybeer;52569635]Numbers got inflated when people here decided pacifism is a gateway drug to nazism. Likey fucking hell the last few days people are advocating for violence and I'm sickened that none of those got banned for it. Really some people can do with stepping back and reflect on the toxic bullshit they are spouting and put that anger in something productive instead of radicalsing and make something bad even worse.[/QUOTE] The internet has been the best tool for white supremacy and nazism since the 1930s. They tried like hell to chase after disenfranchised outcast young men in the 70s and 80s by going after the punk and metal scenes, and got rejected outright - but the image of a nazi during that time period is the Mohawk/skinhead punk decked in Nazi memorabilia. Now it's the chubby white nerdy looking kid. 4chan, Reddit, and a lot of other "social outcast" social media sources became breeding grounds for hatred. Stormfront deliberately targeted them. Gamergate blew a hole into the demographic and turned a lot of these kids against "the liberals" by overinflating a bunch of mentally ill dumbasses. There's a reason why KIA, TIA, conspiracy, /pol/, and a bunch of other communities rapidly transformed into hate-filled sewage dumps. What started out as irony and a joke, like the entire "Hitler did nothing wrong" meme a decade ago, allowed people who actually believed that to sneak into these communities under the pretense of "just memeing." Then, they misrepresented stats and actually argued that Hitler did nothing wrong, and it went from a meme to an actual opinion. It's been a cancer on a lot of the internet since then, radicalizinf vulnerable and insecure men with actual memes. The toxicity you see from those communities is intentional, and it always, always gets worse once it starts. Three regular and persistent racial supremacist posters can change the tone of a community from jokey memesters who like dark humor to actual fucking nazis. I hope events like this will help others be aware of the company they keep - there's so much nazi propaganda spread online, and young people are eating it up under the guise of being "anti-SJW" or "against political correctness." No, you're not, you're (unknowingly) radicalizing and socializing with genocidal nazis.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;52569811]The internet has been the best tool for white supremacy and nazism since the 1930s. They tried like hell to chase after disenfranchised outcast young men in the 70s and 80s by going after the punk and metal scenes, and got rejected outright - but the image of a nazi during that time period is the Mohawk/skinhead punk decked in Nazi memorabilia. Now it's the chubby white nerdy looking kid. 4chan, Reddit, and a lot of other "social outcast" social media sources became breeding grounds for hatred. Stormfront deliberately targeted them. Gamergate blew a hole into the demographic and turned a lot of these kids against "the liberals" by overinflating a bunch of mentally ill dumbasses. There's a reason why KIA, TIA, conspiracy, /pol/, and a bunch of other communities rapidly transformed into hate-filled sewage dumps. What started out as irony and a joke, like the entire "Hitler did nothing wrong" meme a decade ago, allowed people who actually believed that to sneak into these communities under the pretense of "just memeing." Then, they misrepresented stats and actually argued that Hitler did nothing wrong, and it went from a meme to an actual opinion. It's been a cancer on a lot of the internet since then, radicalizinf vulnerable and insecure men with actual memes. The toxicity you see from those communities is intentional, and it always, always gets worse once it starts. Three regular and persistent racial supremacist posters can change the tone of a community from jokey memesters who like dark humor to actual fucking nazis. I hope events like this will help others be aware of the company they keep - there's so much nazi propaganda spread online, and young people are eating it up under the guise of being "anti-SJW" or "against political correctness." No, you're not, you're (unknowingly) radicalizing and socializing with genocidal nazis.[/QUOTE] And instead deradicalizing, everyone who opposes the right pushes them further into the direction of nazism, doesn't help when everything get called nazism either. If you're not getting them out of the extremism, you better get prepared for violence down the line. Because that's what all this is fueling right now.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52568928]Maybe the fact that the communists always come out of the woodwork when that happens and say "see how much better we are" has something to do with it[/QUOTE] Man, I'd love to see some of those communist posters who "came out of the woodwork"! Go ahead and show me, please!

[QUOTE=RB33;52569919]And instead deradicalizing, everyone who opposes the right pushes them further into the direction of nazism, doesn't help when everything get called nazism either. If you're not getting them out of the extremism, you better get prepared for violence down the line. Because that's what all this is fueling right now.[/QUOTE] If someone calling you out on something pushes you to an ideology which promotes the extermination of minorities, then you have some serious issues.