American Man Gives Nazi Salute in Germany, Gets Punched in the Face - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;52570079]Are you implying that putting words in other people's mouths is somehow intellectually dishonest? Am I being dishonest for extrapolating a faulty agenda from your posts?[/QUOTE] My agenda does not need extrapolation, my agenda is "fuck the nazis and the commies and fuck anyone who defends either". I assume you're implying that I was putting words in someone's mouths, and I invite you to show me where I did it, so that I can apologize.

In the context of this discussion, the specific reason Nazis/communists committed their respective genocide is irrelevant; the only thing that matters is both are genocidal ideologies, which is not respectable. If one deserves to get punched, so does the other. If you don't think anyone should be punched for their ideals, that is a position I can respect. I can't respect "punch Nazis but not communists" just because communist genocide wasn't done for racism.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52570084]Explain the purpose of arguing that the specific reason communists committed genocide makes them less bad than Nazis within the context of this discussion if not to defend communism.[/QUOTE] The reason is simple. [QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52568542]I wonder if people here would feel the same about someone punching a communist in the face. It's a legitimate question.[/QUOTE] This was the original post that people were discussing, the post that people were responding to that Laserbeams used to prove that the commenters were communist apologists. This is a thread about heiling Hitler in public, in the wake of a terrorist incident in America yesterday. This is threadshitting. This is Zillamaster55 going "b-but what about communists?" in a thread where communism isn't even remotely relevant. These posters attempted to curb the threadshitting by saying that the two concepts aren't comparable, and discussing communism during a time where the question of white supremacy is the major social question on everybody's mind isn't relevant or needed. We are discussing white supremacy. Communists aren't white supremacists. Communists are thus irrelevant to the discussions about white supremacy, and its troublesome rise. Scientologists are awful people. Scientologists (I think), aren't Nazis. Me saying "I wonder if people here would feel the same about someone punching a Scientologist in the face." is thus just as irrelevant, because Scientology isn't relevant to the discussion of Nazism. Someone pointing out "Scientologists aren't relevant because they aren't roaming the streets right now looking for black people to beat up", or pointing out "Scientologists don't follow Mein Kampf", are thus pertinent responses.

Zillamaster's post was dumb but the replies to it indicating that communism is less severe than Nazism are even more dumb. Both are threats to civilized society. You should say "nobody deserves to get punched for their political ideology" or "everyone deserves to get punched for dangerous political ideologies" [I]or[/I] "this post is dumb"/report the post. I don't think splitting hairs over the reason either "side" committed atrocities makes sense.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52570097]My agenda does not need extrapolation, my agenda is "fuck the nazis and the commies and fuck anyone who defends either". I assume you're implying that I was putting words in someone's mouths, and I invite you to show me where I did it, so that I can apologize.[/QUOTE] [url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1574912&p=52569956&viewfull=1#post52569956[/url] Right here. You said that anybody saying communists were not Nazis must be defending communism. [editline]13th August 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Grenadiac;52570131]Zillamaster's post was dumb but the replies to it indicating that communism is less severe than Nazism are even more dumb. Both are threats to civilized society. You should say "nobody deserves to get punched for their political ideology" or "everyone deserves to get punched for dangerous political ideologies" [I]or[/I] "this post is dumb"/report the post. I don't think splitting hairs over the reason either "side" committed atrocities makes sense.[/QUOTE] Tensions are understandably high, and people make mistakes. I know people who are Jewish who are frustrated with the sudden talk of communism in a discussion where it has absolutely no place, and feel the need to point out "Communists don't want to personally ethnically cleanse me." This does not mean they have a sinister agenda of wanting to support communism. It means that they are frustrated, annoyed, and maybe even frightened, because Nazis attempted to murder and succeeded in murdering yesterday, and now people are bringing up fucking communism.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;52570138][url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1574912&p=52569956&viewfull=1#post52569956[/url] Right here. You said that anybody saying communists were not Nazis must be defending communism.[/QUOTE] But they literally are defending communism. And I didn't say anything like that. Also, I have not once in this thread (or ever) said that "well at least the nazis aren't [X] like those communists, so they aren't so bad after all", so you can not reverse my own arguments against me, and call me a nazi apologist, sorry.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52570158]But they literally are defending communism. And I didn't say anything like that. Also, I have not once in this thread said that "well at least the nazis aren't [X] like those communists, so they aren't so bad after all", so you can not reverse my own arguments against me, and call me a nazi apologist, sorry.[/QUOTE] Neither did they. I'm just doing what you're doing. They didn't defend communism, what the fuck are you talking about?

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;52570161]Neither did they. I'm just doing what you're doing. They didn't defend communism, what the fuck are you talking about?[/QUOTE] All of those posts are "at least the communists aren't racist", how are you doing what I'm doing, what the fuck are [i]you[/i] doing?

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52570166]All of those posts are "at least the communists aren't racist", how are you doing what I'm doing, what the fuck are [i]you[/i] doing?[/QUOTE] Those posts are "Communists aren't white supremacists." That does not mean "Communists are a-okay." You are jumping on them rightfully and factually pointing out that communists are not related to white supremacy in a way that is actually relevant to the discussion and overall political climate, and saying that their only agenda must purely be to defend communism and to attempt to herald it in as the second coming of Jesus. This is fallacious. You are putting words in their mouths and reading into things that are not there. You are saying they are defending communists without them actually showing any support for communists. Pointing out that communists aren't white supremacists does not mean "Hey I guess we should all become communists, eh comrade?" All because some shitposter started talking about communism for no reason. You took things they didn't say and assumed them to be true. I am taking things you didn't say and assumed them to be true. Any questions?

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;52570177]Those posts are "Communists aren't white supremacists." That does not mean "Communists are a-okay." You are jumping on them rightfully and factually pointing out that communists are not related to white supremacy in a way that is actually relevant to the discussion and overall political climate, and saying that their only agenda must purely be to defend communism and to attempt to herald it in as the second coming of Jesus. This is fallacious. You are putting words in their mouths and reading into things that are not there. You are saying they are defending communists without them actually showing any support for communists. Pointing out that communists aren't white supremacists does not mean "Hey I guess we should all become communists, eh comrade?" All because some shitposter started talking about communism for no reason. You took things they didn't say and assumed them to be true. I am taking things you didn't say and assumed them to be true. Any questions?[/QUOTE] I already explained why the "at least the communists aren't white supremacists" argument is bullshit, because class warfare is, in effect, just as bad, and collectivization in the USSR and the great leap forward in China resulted in even more deaths than the holocaust. I am not arguing that the communists are white supremacists, I am arguing that they are just as bad. In case I haven't made it clear enough, I absolutely hate communism, and I may become irrational when discussing it. I apologize for lashing out at random guys, but I still very much think that defending communism even in the context of comparing it with nazism is a bad idea and that people should stop.

[QUOTE=RB33;52569919]And instead deradicalizing, everyone who opposes the right pushes them further into the direction of nazism, doesn't help when everything get called nazism either. If you're not getting them out of the extremism, you better get prepared for violence down the line. Because that's what all this is fueling right now.[/QUOTE] Did you just shift the blame to everyone that's [I]not[/I] a Nazi? That's uh... I'll go with impressive. And you can't just blame it on their circumstances. You can take two kids and raise them the exact same way and still have them turn out different because people are inherently different. If you tend towards Nazism then even if you're in a bad environment it still says a lot about the sort of person you are at heart. There are of course exceptions such as Derek Black though I would point to the fact that he was a nonviolent person as far as I've read. All of his methods were far more peaceful than others in the same movements. By nature he seems to be a fairly peaceful person (and from what I've read he was quite intelligence and always curious, wanting to learn about everything and everyone around him), he just happened to be raised at the forefront of the white supremacist movement in the US.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52569975]Why not? Communists have committed genocide before[/QUOTE] Genocide is not an intrinsic ideal of Communism. Genocide is an intrinsic ideal of Nazism.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52570203]I already explained why the "at least the communists aren't white supremacists" argument is bullshit, because class warfare is, in effect, just as bad, and collectivization in the USSR and the great leap forward in China resulted in even more deaths than the holocaust. I am not arguing that the communists are white supremacists, I am arguing that they are just as bad. In case I haven't made it clear enough, I absolutely hate communism, and I may become irrational when discussing it. I apologize for lashing out at random guys, but I still very much think that defending communism even in the context of comparing it with nazism is a bad idea and that people should stop.[/QUOTE] I would be inclined to agree with you. I'm sorry for taking such an aggressive and confrontational tone, but I know one of the guys you quoted personally. They aren't communist, they're just annoyed. And I don't think people taking poor wording means we should immediately jump to conclusions about their political and ideological beliefs. Communism is bad, but now, in this thread, in the wake of a terrorist attack, is not the time nor place to be discussing it. Starting witch hunts on this forum over communism right now isn't conducive to any sort of discussion about the Nazi problem with Americans. With that I'll stop commenting on it and drop the topic.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;52570206]Did you just shift the blame to everyone that's [I]not[/I] a Nazi? That's uh... I'll go with impressive. And you can't just blame it on their circumstances. You can take two kids and raise them the exact same way and still have them turn out different because people are inherently different. If you tend towards Nazism then even if you're in a bad environment it still says a lot about the sort of person you are at heart. There are of course exceptions such as Derek Black though I would point to the fact that he was a nonviolent person as far as I've read. All of his methods were far more peaceful than others in the same movements. By nature he seems to be a fairly peaceful person (and from what I've read he was quite intelligence and always curious, wanting to learn about everything and everyone around him), he just happened to be raised at the forefront of the white supremacist movement in the US.[/QUOTE] If you're going to claim people are born nazis, then i'm out. Ideologies are social constructs, you can't be born into them. It is an incredily bad excuse not to try to move them away from the ideology.

[QUOTE=RB33;52570381]If you're going to claim people are born nazis, then i'm out. Ideologies are social constructs, you can't be born into them. It is an incredily bad excuse not to try to move them away from the ideology.[/QUOTE] ... What? That's nowhere even [I]close[/I] to what I said, lol. Try going back and rereading that.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;52570388]... What? That's nowhere even [I]close[/I] to what I said, lol. Try going back and rereading that.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Alice3173;52570206]And you can't just blame it on their circumstances. [B]You can take two kids and raise them the exact same way and still have them turn out different because people are inherently different.[/B] If you tend towards Nazism then even if you're in a bad environment it still says a lot about the sort of person [B]you are at heart.[/B][/QUOTE] This implies that it isn't dependent on social factors but rather inherent to them as people. The environment people live in shapes them, if you would lived in Nazi Germany, it would very likely you would have been a Nazi-supporter, if you live in a modern day western country, almost no chance at all. Still they exist, often due to disillusionment of the mainstream society. That is fixable problem, using hate to counter hate only fuels that fire though.

[QUOTE=RB33;52570410]This implies that it isn't dependent on social factors but rather inherent to them as people. The environment people live them shapes them, if you live in Nazi Germany, it would very likely you would have been a Nazi-supporter, if you live in a modern day western, almost no chance at all. Still they exist, often due to disillusionment of the mainstream society. That is fixable problem, using hate to counter hate only fuels that fire though.[/QUOTE] You uh... Really missed the point of me saying all that pretty badly. People have tried to justify these people on the way they were raised and their environment. I'm saying that someone who tends towards Nazi views is more than likely someone who's not terribly peaceful to begin with. More often than not there's going to be little to nothing you can do to actually convince them otherwise. People like Derek Black are the exception rather than the rule. [QUOTE]if you live in Nazi Germany, it would very likely you would have been a Nazi-supporter[/QUOTE] Actually this can be used to argue my point. In my case in particular there's very little chance that would happen. I've never been one to accept stuff like that, it's really in my very nature. Even when I was quite young I was apt to stand up even to my friends or authority figures if I thought what they were doing was wrong or unfair. My point being that clearly not every person is the same so you can't justify each and every Neo-Nazi by saying they had a shit environment or are disillusioned. There are going to be just as many who are simply terrible people who can't realistically be helped as there are people who actually fall under what you're saying. And until you know for certain which they are (which you won't know until the end) then you're taking a risk either way. And the risk you take is your very life since the ideology is by its very nature violent.

[QUOTE=RB33;52570410]This implies that it isn't dependent on social factors but rather inherent to them as people. The environment people live in shapes them, if you would lived in Nazi Germany, it would very likely you would have been a Nazi-supporter, if you live in a modern day western country, almost no chance at all. Still they exist, often due to disillusionment of the mainstream society. That is fixable problem, using hate to counter hate only fuels that fire though.[/QUOTE] I think what he meant is that there are some people that are just born fucked up. Yeah Nazis can be created due to the environment and etc, but there are some that were already beyond saving right after they came out of the womb.

[QUOTE=d00msdaydan;52568590]Communists don't want to exterminate me and everybody like me for the crime of being born[/QUOTE] Sure they're not as bad as nazis, but instead going by most communist regimes, they'll want to exterminate you for being rich, being followers of religions and not wanting to bend to communist will. What an insult to all the people who have suffered under communist regimes. Nazism as an ideology is definitely worse but they're both complete garbage and have been pretty much every single time they have been implemented.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;52570453]You uh... Really missed the point of me saying all that pretty badly. People have tried to justify these people on the way they were raised and their environment. I'm saying that someone who tends towards Nazi views is more than likely someone who's not terribly peaceful to begin with. More often than not there's going to be little to nothing you can do to actually convince them otherwise. People like Derek Black are the exception rather than the rule.[/QUOTE] What are we going to do then? Accept protests and violence like in the other thread about Virginia? If we don't try to change them, they will just remain. [QUOTE]Actually this can be used to argue my point. In my case in particular there's very little chance that would happen. I've never been one to accept stuff like that, it's really in my very nature. Even when I was quite young I was apt to stand up even to my friends or authority figures if I thought what they were doing was wrong or unfair. My point being that clearly not every person is the same so you can't justify each and every Neo-Nazi by saying they had a shit environment or are disillusioned. There are going to be just as many who are simply terrible people who can't realistically be helped as there are people who actually fall under what you're saying. And until you know for certain which they are (which you won't know until the end) then you're taking a risk either way. And the risk you take is your very life since the ideology is by its very nature violent.[/QUOTE] Nazi Germany was filled with propaganda and indoctrination, don't be so sure of it. Do we know that half of them are completely irredeemable people who can't be helped? As I said people are not born into it. They accept as it they grow up or after they become adults. Are they going to kick your ass for you debating with them? They would love the opportunity to spout their shit. By shutting them off from healthy discussion, they become isolated and harder to get out of it.

[QUOTE=RB33;52570505]What are we going to do then? Accept protests and violence like in the other thread about Virginia? If we don't try to change them, they will just remain.[/QUOTE] No one on FP is interested in change. Just justified violence.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;52569389]If only this were a perfect world, then that solution just might work.[/QUOTE] that feels like a cop out [editline]14th August 2017[/editline] i'm only arguing that it's wrong to punch the guy since it only escalates shit further, and is somewhat hypocritical [editline]14th August 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=RB33;52570505]What are we going to do then? Accept protests and violence like in the other thread about Virginia? If we don't try to change them, they will just remain. Nazi Germany was filled with propaganda and indoctrination, don't be so sure of it. Do we know that half of them are completely irredeemable people who can't be helped? As I said people are not born into it. They accept as it they grow up or after they become adults. Are they going to kick your ass for you debating with them? They would love the opportunity to spout their shit. By shutting them off from healthy discussion, they become isolated and harder to get out of it.[/QUOTE] man if only i could be as concise as you, i would have said this from the start

[QUOTE=RB33;52570505]What are we going to do then? Accept protests and violence like in the other thread about Virginia? If we don't try to change them, they will just remain.[/QUOTE] My point is that people saying "wow, just talk to them and show them they're wrong!!" are being incredibly naive. People don't change easily and many will only dig their heels in if you try even if you're being totally reasonable. [QUOTE]Do we know that half of them are completely irredeemable people who can't be helped? As I said people are not born into it. They accept as it they grow up or after they become adults. Are they going to kick your ass for you debating with them? They would love the opportunity to spout their shit. By shutting them off from healthy discussion, they become isolated and harder to get out of it.[/QUOTE] You don't start preaching genocide because you're a great person. Someone who falls into an ideology like that is very likely to be a very bitter and hate-filled person. And someone like that is very unlikely to see the light no matter how you go about it. [QUOTE]Are they going to kick your ass for you debating with them?[/QUOTE] Tell me, what was it that happened with the Nazis over in Charlottesville just like yesterday? Oh right. A great many of them attacked completely innocent people simply for being around and not being the same as them. What do you think the likelihood of getting attacked when doing something that might provoke them is when they're so willing to jump straight to violence when completely unprovoked? [QUOTE]Nazi Germany was filled with propaganda and indoctrination, don't be so sure of it.[/QUOTE] If you're someone who's always questioning everything and any authority even if you're fairly confident it's right it makes it a lot more difficult to fall for that sort of thing. Most people just aren't like that though.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;52570637]You don't start preaching genocide because you're a great person. Someone who falls into an ideology like that is very likely to be a very bitter and hate-filled person. And [B]someone like that is very unlikely to see the light no matter how you go about it.[/B][/quote] I think that's a big cop-out, and if they are truly hopeless, i don't see any solution other than locking all of them up, and countering hate with hate only creates more hate, it's not a solution, just propagation of a problem that'll keep escalating. being hateful to a hate filled person only makes them full of more hate. i seriously can't justify being a terrible person to someone just because they're terrible to begin with. everyone gets more terrible in the end because of it creating a notion/assuming that these people are all too bad to save just stops us from even trying, not even considering the possibility, which doesn't help either

[QUOTE=The golden;52568713]What the hell is this? I'm pretty sure cheering when a nazi gets decked in the face doesn't mean I support the death and oppression of minorities, seizing of the press, destruction of democracy, mass militarization, and everything else that comes with Nazism.[/QUOTE] no, but it does mean you missed the point [editline]14th August 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Uber22;52568730]i still dont get why people are defending nazis ....it seriously shouldn't be allowed to exist as an idea.[/QUOTE] national socialism is fine, genocide isn't. hitler had some bright moments, but he had some dim ones as well. if you take out the dim ones you're left with a pretty solid political ideology resembling modern semi-socialist countries.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52570203]I already explained why the "at least the communists aren't white supremacists" argument is bullshit, because class warfare is, in effect, just as bad, and collectivization in the USSR and the great leap forward in China resulted in even more deaths than the holocaust. I am not arguing that the communists are white supremacists, I am arguing that they are just as bad. In case I haven't made it clear enough, I absolutely hate communism, and I may become irrational when discussing it. I apologize for lashing out at random guys, but I still very much think that defending communism even in the context of comparing it with nazism is a bad idea and that people should stop.[/QUOTE] Communism is a idealistic system of government that generally fails due to human nature. National Socialism is policy born from hatred and intollerance. I understand and sympathize with your distaste for Communism but to say it's "just as bad" is fucking batshit and clear whataboutism.

[QUOTE=butre;52570803] national socialism is fine, genocide isn't. hitler had some bright moments, but he had some dim ones as well. if you take out the dim ones you're left with a pretty solid political ideology resembling modern semi-socialist countries.[/QUOTE] Holy shit lol [editline]14th August 2017[/editline] has to be satire

[QUOTE=butre;52570803]national socialism is fine, genocide isn't. hitler had some bright moments, but he had some dim ones as well. if you take out the dim ones you're left with a pretty solid political ideology resembling modern semi-socialist countries.[/QUOTE] I really can't make fun of this. It goes beyond self parody. It reads like a shit snl sketch from the 80s.

[QUOTE=butre;52570803]national socialism is fine, genocide isn't.[/QUOTE]the former is forever intertwined with the latter. how else are you going to remove undesirables from your lebensraum, which eventually will turn out to be the whole world?

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;52570873]Holy shit lol [editline]14th August 2017[/editline] has to be satire[/QUOTE] I'll rephrase: it's a solid financial ideology, one that managed to bring germany out of it's post-war recession. it's still too authoritarian for my tastes even after removing the antisemitic aspect of it. some people like authoritarianism though, and a little bit of authoritarianism is the difference between an anarchist society and a capitalist society. just nazism takes the authoritarian aspect too far for me. the artistic suppression in particular was not good.