[UK] Explosion at Manchester Arena -- 22 dead + 50 Injured - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;52263072]Recognizing that alienating and marginalizing innocent Muslim populations is going to result in increased rates of extremism isn't being an apologist for Islamic extremism, it's a basic strategic fact. [/QUOTE] How? I'm not sure I completely understand this argument. If I'm discriminated against I might feel upset, but not so upset that I would outright commit terrorism. This isn't discrimination based on physical appearance. I'm sure huge majority of people don't care about skin color, what worries them greatly is toxic ideology which significant part of ME population currently in Europe refuse to abandon, or at the very least reform.

[QUOTE=Perrine;52263074]back on topic [media]https://twitter.com/ArianaGrande/status/866849021519966208[/media][/QUOTE] I can't imagine the weight that will bear on her mind. In relation, I can also see artists and performers who are likely to have a younger audience losing sales/interest from concerts due to parents being justifiably concerned for their safety. The whole situation sucks.

[QUOTE=Tarver;52262946]What's important is that we dont speak out against Islam and force MORE people into radical terrorism,we need to understand that this has nothing to do with Islam,everyone has to look deeper into Islam so that they can understand its peaceful message,we are not going to be a war torn state,don't be such a paranoid buffoon and understand that these people need our help and protection more than ever[/QUOTE] There's some nuance your missing here. Despite what mainstream political pundits would have you believe, its possible to criticize radical islamism and criticize the religion as a whole without vilifying and painting members of islam as evil. It's not a binary switch. The details matter in this case, the exact message matters a universe more than any kind of asenine "but you're not allowed to talk about islam at all". Maybe the population of the world as a whole isn't educated enough to realize that you can cleanly divide things and make everyone happy. If that;s the case the solution isnt just to go with whatever extreme has less bad implications (either pushing muslims to extremism or forgiving extremists for their actions), it's to spread sane thinking, educate in other words. Be the change you want to see etc etc.

Can you guys really not tell that Tarver is trolling? A quick glance at his post history shows he's a generic /pol/ shitter harping on about "liberal tears" He's just exaggerating a "liberal" perspective to make it sound stupid.

[QUOTE=Jackald;52263100]I actually agree with this completely, creating divisions in society isn't the way to solve this, but that kind of knee jerk response of shutting down all discussion by saying "wait, but it's not all muslims!" also doesn't help.[/QUOTE] These kinds of responses are just condescending and downright self-righteous tbh

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52263112]Can you guys really not tell that Tarver is trolling? A quick glance at his post history shows he's a generic /pol/ shitter harping on about "liberal tears" He's just exaggerating a "liberal" perspective to make it sound stupid.[/QUOTE] Is it really exaggeration if there's a significant part of population absolutely agreeing with his stances?

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52263112]Can you guys really not tell that Tarver is trolling? A quick glance at his post history shows he's a generic /pol/ shitter harping on about "liberal tears" He's just exaggerating a "liberal" perspective to make it sound stupid.[/QUOTE] Concern trolling is its name.

[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;52263119]Concern trolling.[/QUOTE] That's the term I was looking for, thanks.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52263112]Can you guys really not tell that Tarver is trolling? A quick glance at his post history shows he's a generic /pol/ shitter harping on about "liberal tears" He's just exaggerating a "liberal" perspective to make it sound stupid.[/QUOTE] Poe's law in action

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52263112]Can you guys really not tell that Tarver is trolling? A quick glance at his post history shows he's a generic /pol/ shitter harping on about "liberal tears" He's just exaggerating a "liberal" perspective to make it sound stupid.[/QUOTE] There's some truth in it though, there are a significant amount of people that actively shuts down any form of criticism of Islam.

[QUOTE=dzonint;52263089]How? I'm not sure I completely understand this argument. If I'm discriminated against I might feel upset, but not so upset that I would outright commit terrorism. This isn't discrimination based on physical appearance, I'm sure huge majority of people don't care about skin color, what worries them greatly is toxic ideology which significant part of ME population currently in Europe refuse to abandon, or at the very least reform.[/QUOTE] That's because you're likely an emotionally stable person, and one who hasn't been worn down by a lifetime of undeserved hatred and distrust based on little more than your religious affiliation. I'm not making the argument that the average person is suddenly going to be a terrorist, just that in a population of 1.6bn people, the number of individuals at risk of radicalization is still going to be significant, even if it is only a fractional percentage. And it [I]is[/I] a fractional percentage, by the way. About 1-in-15000 Muslims, as of estimations from about four years ago. This is the narrative pushed by extremist groups: [I]The West is at war with Muslims. They hate you. They want to destroy your way of life, your culture, your heritage. You have done nothing, yet still you are abused and harassed and targeted for things that are outside of your control. The only way to survive is to join us.[/I] With each horrifying terrorist attack, that narrative is proven "true." Massive surges of anti-Muslim hysteria rise up in the wake of the tragedy, and vast swathes of innocent people find themselves harassed, marginalized, hated, and feared for things that they had absolutely nothing to do with. Each time, a fractional percentage of the population finds themselves pushed closer and closer towards violent extremist ideology. On a macro level, we're not talking about a switch, but a dial. Every passing year, every new wave of hatred, turns the dial a little bit more, increasing the pressure. Eventually, small swathes of Muslims begin to internalize that hatred and fear, and slowly find themselves beginning to see violent extremism as a sad necessity. Extremist recruiters, from ISIS or other groups, seek to find the people who have begun to embrace increasingly hostile feelings towards the West, and turn them to their own violent purposes. And thus the cycle repeats, inciting a new wave of hatred and hysteria, and a new generation of people being pushed to the brink of extremism in response to it.

[media]https://twitter.com/theblaze/status/866838097715179522[/media]

[QUOTE=Jackald;52263100]I actually agree with this completely, creating divisions in society isn't the way to solve this, but that kind of knee jerk response of shutting down all discussion by saying "wait, but it's not all muslims!" also doesn't help. I just don't agree that domestic terrorism is caused by marginalised, oppressed minorities. A big part of it lies in how 2nd generation immigrants do feel a lack of belonging, and are drawn in by the extremist message which gives them some purpose, but a big part of that is because of communities becoming insular and separated, and that creates its own tensions. I just don't agree that it's entirely a "natives oppress immigrants" situation, and that's the argument that permeates a lot of these discussions, I think there's a kind of "us and them" societal gap that happens because immigrant groups want to keep their own traditions alive rather than integrate into a wider society (and there's a very good argument that they should be able to do that), and that can sometimes be what becomes a breeding ground for extremism. The Washintgon Examiner did an interesting piece about this "second generation terrorist" phenomenon a little while back. [url]http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/what-to-do-about-second-generation-terrorists/article/2618291[/url] [editline]edit[/editline] I mean the very fact that there's not a huge upswell in Polish and Romanian crime, despite significant immigration strongly suggests that it's not completely an issue to do with immigration.[/QUOTE] Oh no, it's definitely not [B]entirely[/B] a "natives oppress immigrants" situation. Of course not. It is the single largest factor of how groups like ISIS are able to extend their influence outside of the areas they control, however.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;52262894]In the same vein you have people just chomping at the bit to use this to push their agenda. The cynicism in todays culture is revolting.[/QUOTE] people sure love to fly their flags, which is saddening, since most of their flags are erected atop the heaping dead.

[QUOTE=dzonint;52263089]How? I'm not sure I completely understand this argument. If I'm discriminated against I might feel upset, but not so upset that I would outright commit terrorism. [B]This isn't discrimination based on physical appearance.[/B] I'm sure huge majority of people don't care about skin color, what worries them greatly is toxic ideology which significant part of ME population currently in Europe refuse to abandon, or at the very least reform.[/QUOTE] I take it that you missed the spike in [url=http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/15/us/sikh-hate-crime-victims/]hate crimes against Sikhs in the wake of 9/11[/url] because they got confused for Muslims, because of their turbans? Not about physical appearance my ass

[QUOTE=dzonint;52263118]Is it really exaggeration if there's a significant part of population absolutely agreeing with his stances?[/QUOTE] I don't really think that's true, though? Like, yes, I see why feeding into the hysteria and outrage against Muslims is just about the worst response we could make right now, but I would never, ever argue that people [I]deserve to be killed in terrorist attacks[/I] because Westerners are Islamophobic. That's completely ridiculous. Don't take the stupid trolling of one mook as evidence of anything.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;52263131]That's because you're likely an emotionally stable person, and one who hasn't been worn down by a lifetime of undeserved hatred and distrust based on little more than your religious affiliation. I'm not making the argument that the average person is suddenly going to be a terrorist, just that in a population of 1.6bn people, the number of individuals at risk of radicalization is still going to be significant, even if it is only a fractional percentage. And it [I]is[/I] a fractional percentage, by the way. About 1-in-15000 Muslims, as of estimations from about four years ago. This is the narrative pushed by extremist groups: [I]The West is at war with Muslims. They hate you. They want to destroy your way of life, your culture, your heritage. You have done nothing, yet still you are abused and harassed and targeted for things that are outside of your control. The only way to survive is to join us.[/I] With each horrifying terrorist attack, that narrative is proven "true." Massive surges of anti-Muslim hysteria rise up in the wake of the tragedy, and vast swathes of innocent people find themselves harassed, marginalized, hated, and feared for things that they had absolutely nothing to do with. Each time, a fractional percentage of the population finds themselves pushed closer and closer towards violent extremist ideology. On a macro level, we're not talking about a switch, but a dial. Every passing year, every new wave of hatred, turns the dial a little bit more, increasing the pressure. Eventually, small swathes of Muslims begin to internalize that hatred and fear, and slowly find themselves beginning to see violent extremism as a sad necessity. Extremist recruiters, from ISIS or other groups, seek to find the people who have begun to embrace increasingly hostile feelings towards the West, and turn them to their own violent purposes. And thus the cycle repeats, inciting a new wave of hatred and hysteria, and a new generation of people being pushed to the brink of extremism in response to it.[/QUOTE] Well I mean, how hard is it to actually distance from terrorists and radical beliefs? Why can't people just say [I]"Hey guys, I agree with you, fuck these people, and yes I agree that everyone is equal yadda yadda yadda"[/I], instead a significant part of them get incredibly defensive about their religion and protect it like their life depends on it. Weren't there worldwide protests with thousands of people and actual murders commited because someone drew a caricature of Mohammad? This isn't attack directly on them, it's attack on shitty ideology which is enabling terrorist acts and endangering our lives. Why aren't gypsies committing terrorists attacks then, I'm fairly positive that they're one of the most discriminated groups of people around here (and certainly far far more discriminated than muslims)? [QUOTE=Zukriuchen;52263139]I take it that you missed the spike in [URL="http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/15/us/sikh-hate-crime-victims/"]hate crimes against Sikhs in the wake of 9/11[/URL] because they got confused for Muslims, because of their turbans? Not about physical appearance my ass[/QUOTE] Learn to read, I said majority of them not all of them.

[QUOTE=Impulse101;52263125]There's some truth in it though, there are a significant amount of people that actively shuts down any form of criticism of Islam.[/QUOTE] and yet the way you guys handle people like that, as seen with how you're handling tarver, is fucking despicable and does nothing to resolve the issue. it only serves to entrench people in their views more. this entire thread is just a chaotic shit fight, honestly. and i have no idea what to make of this attack. just like a lot of things in life, it's chaotic and scary and makes no sense.

[QUOTE=Jackald;52263147]I'm not sure I agree, because lots of other religious and ethnic groups are also discriminated against just as heavily if not more-so than Muslims in various parts of the world, and yet the tendency for radicalisation still exists more prominently in Islam. I'm fully prepared to believe that it's because it's a combination of mental health issues, very effective propoganda, and a simple numbers game (there's a larger sample size for your 1 in 15,000 chance of being radicalised), but I would struggle to point definitively towards the marginalisation of Islamic youth as being the main cause.[/QUOTE] Not all of those religions are as deeply rooted in/connected to regions as tumultuous and torn by war as the middle east

[QUOTE=Toybasher;52263134] [/QUOTE] [quote]Western LEO tells CNN a male at the scene in Manchester has been identified as probable suicide bomber[/quote] Do they mean they have an ID of the guy who blew himself up, or did they arrest a second attempted bomber? edit: it's a shitty headline. They haven't found out who he is, they just think that a dead guy at the scene was a suicide bomber.

[QUOTE=Pissfuck;52263152]and yet the way you guys handle people like that, as seen with how you're handling tarver, is fucking despicable and does nothing to resolve the issue. it only serves to entrench people in their views more. this entire thread is just a chaotic shit fight, honestly. and i have no idea what to make of this attack. just like a lot of things in life, it's chaotic and scary and makes no sense.[/QUOTE] Then go to sleep like me and hopefully it will make sense in the morning. People Arguing about shit at 4am isnt helping.

holy shit my prayers go out to the families affected, this needs to be end soon <3

So sad, so so sad... We will probably deal with this for the rest of our lives too, which sucks.

[QUOTE=Stroheim;52262853] [media]https://twitter.com/elliefreyax/status/866830824561414145[/media] Video [B][U]inside of the arena[/U][/B] when the bomber went off[/QUOTE] holy shit. those poor kids

[QUOTE=dzonint;52263151]Learn to read, I said majority of them not all of them.[/QUOTE] And the vast majority of muslims living in western countries isn't radicalized either. So wtf is your point?

every time i read the headline i just feel the most incredible punch in the gut because i [I]know[/I] about blast injuries and i [I]know[/I] how fucked up most of those 50 injured are. blast injuries are not the kind of thing you recover from and live on the same as ever. and i remember that it was a concert mostly full of kids and i'm fucking mortified to think about it.

this is everyone's* fault *everyone in the cultural, noospherical sense, not individual sense

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;52263131]That's because you're likely an emotionally stable person, and one who hasn't been worn down by a lifetime of undeserved hatred and distrust based on little more than your religious affiliation. I'm not making the argument that the average person is suddenly going to be a terrorist, just that in a population of 1.6bn people, the number of individuals at risk of radicalization is still going to be significant, even if it is only a fractional percentage. And it [I]is[/I] a fractional percentage, by the way. About 1-in-15000 Muslims, as of estimations from about four years ago. This is the narrative pushed by extremist groups: [I]The West is at war with Muslims. They hate you. They want to destroy your way of life, your culture, your heritage. You have done nothing, yet still you are abused and harassed and targeted for things that are outside of your control. The only way to survive is to join us.[/I] With each horrifying terrorist attack, that narrative is proven "true." Massive surges of anti-Muslim hysteria rise up in the wake of the tragedy, and vast swathes of innocent people find themselves harassed, marginalized, hated, and feared for things that they had absolutely nothing to do with. Each time, a fractional percentage of the population finds themselves pushed closer and closer towards violent extremist ideology. On a macro level, we're not talking about a switch, but a dial. Every passing year, every new wave of hatred, turns the dial a little bit more, increasing the pressure. Eventually, small swathes of Muslims begin to internalize that hatred and fear, and slowly find themselves beginning to see violent extremism as a sad necessity. Extremist recruiters, from ISIS or other groups, seek to find the people who have begun to embrace increasingly hostile feelings towards the West, and turn them to their own violent purposes. And thus the cycle repeats, inciting a new wave of hatred and hysteria, and a new generation of people being pushed to the brink of extremism in response to it.[/QUOTE] I don't think that's a satisfying explanation at all. Countries with Muslim majorities who are obviously not going to be suffering discrimination for being Muslim still have problems with this. Another thing worth noting is that Shia Muslims don't tend towards extremism. It's definitely a lot more than just western people being nasty to them.

For what it's worth, my sympathies go out to all of those whose lives may never be the same again

[QUOTE=dzonint;52263151]Well I mean, how hard is it to actually distance from terrorists and radical beliefs? Why can't people just say [I]"Hey guys, I agree with you, fuck these people, and yes I agree that everyone is equal yadda yadda yadda"[/I], instead a significant part of them get incredibly defensive about their religion and protect it like their life depends on it.[/quote] Nobody's defending terrorists (well, except agents of radicalization, or those travelling the path to radicalization), but of [I]course[/I] they're defending their religious beliefs. Their religious beliefs are often at the very core of their cultural and personal identity, and they have nothing to do with the broader problem here. I don't know whether or not you're religious, but assuming you were, would you think it was fair for you to be held accountable for the actions of violent extremists claiming to have acted in the name of your religion? You, and everybody you know, are just a normal person minding their own business, living regular lives. You have no control over the actions of extremists. You're forgetting that the key word in Islamic extremism is "extremism." It doesn't reflect the general religious population -- it's a twisted caricature. [quote]Weren't there worldwide protests with thousands of people and actual murders commited because someone drew a caricature of Mohammad? This isn't attack directly on them, it's attack on shitty ideology which is enabling terrorist acts and endangering our lives. [/quote] Indeed, but you're ignoring the larger factor here: while Muslims around the world may have been offended (it's pretty insensitive), it's not as you Average Joe Muslim out in San Francisco was demanding death to the West. The most chaotic and violent of those "worldwide" protests were contained to some pretty specific geographic areas -- overwhelming Muslim majorities existing under theocratic dictatorships, despots, tyrants, etc. These governments feed a steady stream of propaganda and religious doctrine to a population that is overwhelmingly poor and uneducated, mandating religious law as statutory law. Zealotry is bred as a matter of national policy. Combine that with the chaos of decades of war, and you have a hotbed for extremist ideology. While Muslims around the world may have been offended (it's pretty insensitive), it's not as you Average Joe Muslim out in San Francisco was demanding death to the West. The religion itself is every bit as capable as being completely innocuous as any other religion, as evidenced by the fact that essentially no Western Muslims are going around stoning women and shit. [quote]Why aren't gypsies committing terrorists attacks then, I'm fairly positive that they're one of the most discriminated groups of people around here (and certainly far far more discriminated than muslims)?[/quote] Because "gypsies" are missing all of the other important factors of radicalization: a steady stream of propaganda, a massive global population, and geographic hotbeds of religious/ethnic conflict for which to rally around. [QUOTE=carcarcargo;52263196]I don't think that's a satisfying explanation at all. Countries with Muslim majorities who are obviously not going to be suffering discrimination for being Muslim still have problems with this. Another thing worth noting is that Shia Muslims don't tend towards extremism. It's definitely a lot more than just western people being nasty to them.[/QUOTE] I addressed that to a degree in this post. The radicalization of Muslims in extremist hotbeds within the Middle East is a different beast, tied to more localized social and political conditions -- though it is still fed propaganda about the Western threats towards Muslims to a certain degree. That said, in my previous posts I'm talking primarily about the expanding influence of Islamic extremism to other nations -- how westernized Muslims living in the UK and elsewhere can become radicalized over time despite having very limited contact with extremist forces abroad.