Germany’s first vegan kindergarten: progressive education or physical abuse? - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=phygon;53202050]That's not what sentience is[/QUOTE] Actually it absolutely is, check out the bolded part. [Quote]Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive or experience subjectively.[1] Eighteenth-century philosophers used the concept to distinguish the ability to think (reason) from the ability to feel (sentience). In modern Western philosophy, sentience is the ability to experience sensations (known in philosophy of mind as "qualia"). In Eastern philosophy, sentience is a metaphysical quality of all things that require respect and care. [B]The concept is central to the philosophy of animal rights because sentience is necessary for the ability to suffer, and thus is held to confer certain right.[/B][/quote]

Sorry, got it confused with sapience, which is different

[QUOTE=Crumpet;53202054].[/QUOTE] Wahoops, I somehow got it swapped up with Consciousness in my head, ignore me

[QUOTE=phygon;53202061]Wahoops, I somehow got it swapped up with Consciousness in my head, ignore me[/QUOTE] No sweat, easy mistake. I had to double check anyway.

[QUOTE=Crumpet;53202026]I'd love a source on it being factually false because the The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics says otherwise. It's okay to admit that eating meat might be kinda bad you know. and live with that fact. Don't try skew the truth.[/QUOTE] It is in fact, factual. The issue is [B]well planned[/B] which the german diet is [I]apparently not[/I], which is why [B]vegan nutritionists[/B] have issue with it. Also lol at you citing an organization that takes annual dosh from some of the world's [I]largest [/I]junk food manufacturers including the largest single contributor to type 2 diabetes in human history to stay in business. Again, your politics has jack to do with human biology, and if you peruse the article again, it's not vegetables that are the issue, it's the actual presented diet, which is what happens politics override common sense.

[QUOTE=Tetracycline;53202055]Actually it absolutely is, check out the bolded part.[/QUOTE] Got those swapped up. Which is also why I'm not really sure why it matters. If something is not sentient, it just doesn't perceive suffering in the same way... not psychological suffering, anyway. We shouldn't force animals to go through unnecessary pain, but a cow is [I]not[/I] going to care that its child is missing as much as a human would.

[QUOTE=27X;53202077]It is in fact, factual. The issue is [B]well planned[/B] which the german diet is [I]apparently not[/I], which is why [B]vegan nutritionists[/B] have issue with it. Also lol at you citing an organization that takes annual dosh from some of the world's [I]largest [/I]junk food manufacturers including the largest single contributor to type 2 diabetes in human history to stay in business. Again, your politics has jack to do with human biology, and if you peruse the article again, it's not vegetables that are the issue, it's the actual presented diet, which is what happens politics override common sense.[/QUOTE] Okay so you're against a particular German schools attempt to instate a shitty Vegan diet, but it really seems like you're after Veganism in general. [editline]14th March 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=phygon;53202078]Got those swapped up. Which is also why I'm not really sure why it matters. If something is not sentient, it just doesn't perceive suffering in the same way... not psychological suffering, anyway. We shouldn't force animals to go through unnecessary pain, but a cow is [I]not[/I] going to care that its child is missing as much as a human would.[/QUOTE] You can never really know how much pain a cow feels, but even if it is less than humans it is absolutely unfair for us to unnecessarily cause it this suffering. We should move away from needing massacre and suffering to sustain ourselves, at least if we want to be ethically and morally consistent. Here's a question: What is the trait present in animals that, if present in humans, would justify mistreating them both?

A lot of people don't realise that a plant based diet is the most economically viable diet. Its the cheapest to eat, doesn't require much land to produce, best for your health and best for the health of the environment. That being said, no one should be forced into it. Nutritional education should be directed at letting people see the benefits and change their mind. With that also being said, it sounds like if someone doesn't want their kid to eat this diet, they can just send them to a different kindergarten so no one is having this forced into them. I don't see what the big deal is. Maybe it's just the controversy of a plant based diet because damn meat tastes good

Might generate some issues with kids being picky eaters and refusing to eat food they don't find tasty. And from evolutionary perspective, humans and all of life has evolved to prefer as energy (and nutrient) rich food as they can efficiently get, and increased energy budged gives many benefits, like allows faster metabolism and etc... Hence humans (and animals) find 'fatty' foods 'tasty' and preferable alternative. The issue with obesity is these preferences being evolved during times of scarity, causing there being less demand for 'energy stockpile limits'. There's even some debate going on lettuce being less energy efficient by environmental inpact than bacon: [URL]https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lettuce-produces-more-greenhouse-gas-emissions-than-bacon-does/[/URL] Another equation to solve is, that metabolistic efficiency, rate and bacteria populations are almost unique for every person, meaning that they can utilize various foods at different efficiency, and if satisfactory vegan diet is balancing on razor sharp edge, it may be really hard to find one what fits for all. I'm not against this, if they manage to make satisfactory diet and foods what kids will actually eat without forcing them to. But i'm afraid that this might be more about ideology than practice... [editline]15th March 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=Rudevinny;53201969]It might not be so terrible on paper if the food's properly nutritious, but I'd take issue if Germany has a history of feeding their students some mass-produced slop devoid of any nutrients like Finland does and the food provided at the vegan kindergarten is just the same shit except without all the meat, eggs and dairy.[/QUOTE] I really hated it in my school years when they explain that this tasteless slop is in accordance with nutritional standards, which i doubt will take differences in metabolism in account...

[QUOTE=Extronic;53201819]maybe because the people who choose whats for lunch that day are professionals who have to follow regulationd and aree knowledgeable in what kids need to eat?[/QUOTE] This has to be a joke. Did you attend a public school? It's as mismanaged as any other organized endeavour, not least in comparison to other catering..

The idea of merely feeding kids a vegan diet equating abuse is really bollocks and utter hysteria, [B]however[/B] it can be a gateway to an abusive behaviour pattern, especially at home. For example as a child I was regularly forced to eat food that, unbeknownst to my parents, was completely toxic to my digestive system because of internal allergic reactions to food. They wrote off my refusal to eat it as simple childhood stubbornness and a desire to eat sweets and garbage when in actuality it was because it turned my insides into broken glass. They assumed they knew what was best for me even though they clearly [B]didn't[/B] because they didn't have full understanding or oversight of the situation, and so they enforced a diet upon me that led to me dropping weight like a fucking millstone, vomiting and shitting blood on a regular basis, and eventually led to my many hospital stays and has probably contributed to my incredibly weak digestive system in later life. I'm not saying the school will be so abusive. Nor even that any one family that sends their kids to this kindergarten will do this. But you have to understand that it [B]can[/B] be a gateway for abuse. [editline]15th March 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=Extronic;53202666]this must be a joke. did you even go to school? ive never seen people who were bigger pussies to the administration and regulations in my life.[/QUOTE] Nice attempt at a zinger. Is that your entire argument, just "oh lol you hate administration and must be a pussy"? Let me rephrase it for you. School systems, and especially public schools, in Europe tend to be poorly-managed, improperly budgeted, and typically understaffed. Individual teachers are stretched to breaking-point with overtime and out-of-hours work. Support staff like janitors and caterers are usually third parties hired-in on a miniscule budget, usually one of the lowest-bidding contractors too, and thus they're typically mismanaged and poorly ran. You don't need to look into a fucking crystal ball to figure out that typically structures like this limp along rather than run efficiently. So do I think that this school will be able to manage a [I]significantly more complicated[/I] dietary system for kids? Not in the fucking least. Most schools don't provide a healthy diet as it is, they just provide enough food to keep the kids from complaining of hunger and that's about it. It's purely due to home nutrition and the fact that the body can gain sustenance from about anything edible that kids don't suffer malnutrition. However in the case of this school parents might lean on the school to pick a 'proper vegan choice' for their kids that might be lacking in valuable developmental substances. [B]Vegan diets can be done right. I have no faith in a school's catering system to do so.[/B] [QUOTE=Extronic;53202666] everything sucks because nobody has the balls to do anything fun[/QUOTE] What even is this meant to be saying?

[QUOTE=oskutin;53202474] There's even some debate going on lettuce being less energy efficient by environmental inpact than bacon: [URL]https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lettuce-produces-more-greenhouse-gas-emissions-than-bacon-does/[/URL][/QUOTE] I don't want to detract from your post, but did you even read the article? The title is clearly clickbait because while it may be true (I don't know how it's measured) it explains that it's something we shouldn't even care about measuring. Comparing water use of producing grain vs bacon would be a more apt comparison. In fact it goes into how a plant based diet is a lot better, so I don't really understand what the author is trying to convey. But this is from my opinion that our energy source is starchy carbs, not from meat fats. I see that you have a different opinion and that's fine. Just don't try to justify it with clickbait articles lol.

[QUOTE=Extronic;53202678]you really think that germany's first vegan public school wont be heavily scrutinized? lol[/quote] I don't think it will be as scrutinized as it should be. Not in the least after the media buzz dies down, either. Do you really believe that government and healthcare oversight is really this intensive? I appreciate your optimism but unfortunately there are so many fucking gaps in the way governments (and education especially) are run that I'm honestly surprised a lot of it works. [quote]also thanks for sharing the story, however i do not see how your anecdotal tale about your rare bowel disorder is relevant to ALL kids in general.[/QUOTE] Can you cut the passive-aggressive tone? Let me break this down for you. I'm going to use a [B]lot of bold[/B] so you can understand me. My point was that parents -- and teachers -- typically deem themselves to know what's best for kids. And they're [B]right[/B], sometimes. However, this [B]can[/B] manifest as a form of abuse in [I]some parents[/I], such as mine. I was [B]using it as an example[/B] to provide [b]an understandable analogy[/B] for the benefit of people who read my post, so they can clearly see how, exactly, it can be a gateway for abuse, using an example I know intimately because I underwent it. I said outright: I don't say the school will be abusive, nor do I even [I]think[/I] it will be. It's just important to understand that things like this [I]can[/I] lead to abuse. [QUOTE=Extronic;53202678] my whole life ive been assigned an ID number and constantly told "this is what the county says we need to do so were doing it." one day out of nowhere teachers started putting up these learning targets every day. was pretty gay and pretty clear nobody gave a shit but they made a new one evwry day so they didnt get in trouble. thats what its meant to be saying.[/QUOTE] Look, I am going to be honest, what you are saying in this specific quote makes utterly no sense to me. I cannot decipher what you are trying to say other than repeating an anecdote which feels like it has no bearing. Are you legitimately alright? Because the way you're expressing yourself is sending me some mixed and worrisome signals. I'm not trying to gaslight you or seem condescending, I'm legitimately concerned based on what you've told me about your current state (and your past depression thread posts). If you need to discuss some Real Shit then hit me up in PM. I was actually gonna go "now who's anecdotal nyeh" like a sneering prick but I honestly can't tell what you're saying sincerely, it's just... vaguely related anecdote? I think?

[QUOTE=Badballer;53202675]I don't want to detract from your post, but did you even read the article? The title is clearly clickbait because while it may be true (I don't know how it's measured) it explains that it's something we shouldn't even care about measuring. Comparing water use of producing grain vs bacon would be a more apt comparison. In fact it goes into how a plant based diet is a lot better, so I don't really understand what the author is trying to convey. But this is from my opinion that our energy source is starchy carbs, not from meat fats. I see that you have a different opinion and that's fine. Just don't try to justify it with clickbait articles lol.[/QUOTE] Yes, i did read the whole article, and i didn't say that plant based diet = harmul to envinroment, only, as that research states, few types of 'fresh produce' are on par with beef. Hard to say from foreign news outlets how trustworthy they are, hence i stated that there's a 'debate'. Also, fats have more than twice of energy than carbs. Whole 'health and eviroment' is nowdays so politized and full of myths, that it's incredibly hard to find the closest of truth there.

[QUOTE=Extronic;53202701]no i [B]literally[/B] can not. literally every second i have spent in a school i've felt like there are so many regulations. learning targets, teachers who literally just teach what the county says they have to, one who literally told us that there are certain [B]specific[/B] school-appropriate topics that he's not allowed to talk about because the county said no. i trust that whoever is running this school will be competent enough to keep potentially thousands of kids healthy.[/QUOTE] You're clearly taking this issue very personally and as a result I think it's best if we draw this debate to a close. I'm sorry if I brought up any bad memories for you, or made you revisit anything you didn't want to. It wasn't my intention. I hope you have an otherwise peaceful night.

[QUOTE=oskutin;53202694]Yes, i did read the whole article, and i didn't say that plant based diet = harmul to envinroment, only, as that research states, few types of 'fresh produce' are on par with beef. Hard to say from foreign news outlets how trustworthy they are, hence i stated that there's a 'debate'. Also, fats have more than twice of energy than carbs. Whole 'health and eviroment' is nowdays so politized and full of myths, that it's incredibly hard to find the closest of truth there.[/QUOTE] Your comment and linking to the article implied that producing plants for consumption has a higher water use and therefore is worse for the environment than producing bacon, and I'm saying (and so does the article author) that's not true because we shouldn't be measuring output solely on energy density. I'm sure it's true that bacon is more calorie rich then lettuce because of the fat and protein content, but it's not at all relevant to water use. The article contridicts itself, that's why I'm saying it's clickbait. Your post would have been fine without linking it. Anyway putting that aside, when you say twice the energy are you talking about calories?

vegan is the way to go. Sustainable for the earth, health and ethic points of the whole dial. It should be a decision but no kids gonna have any trouble on a good vegan diet, i would say they would get it better than the average joe.

I find it funny how people only screech about children's nutrition when vegans are brought up, even though the typical child's diet full of junk food is arguably worse.

im guessing people randomly disagreeing with the notion of a vegan diet beign insufficient havent done their research.

[QUOTE=ElderLolz;53201686]let the kids decide what kind of food they want to eat themselves.[/QUOTE] [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQtlPPZ6FFE[/media]

I view meat like sugar in a way, an almost necessary evil, but something that can and should be replaced when the time comes.

It's not that I disagree that a vegan diet can be healthy, it's that grilling meat is a hobby of mine and I can't see any enjoyable diet that doesn't include meat. I'm looking forward to the day when we got lab grown meat that has the exact same taste, texture, and look as beef. I'm hoping Memphis Meats can achieve commercial viability. [url]http://www.memphismeats.com[/url] Fruit and veggies are good, but Meat is delicious.

[QUOTE=OvB;53202952]It's not that I disagree that a vegan diet can be healthy, it's that grilling meat is a hobby of mine and I can't see any enjoyable diet that doesn't include meat. I'm looking forward to the day when we got lab grown meat that has the exact same taste, texture, and look as beef. I'm hoping Memphis Meats can achieve commercial viability. [url]http://www.memphismeats.com[/url] Fruit and veggies are good, but Meat is delicious.[/QUOTE] That's fine, and is in fact my own stance on the issue; I was vegetarian for about 3 years but reintroduced meat when I started cooking for myself. Unfortunately the number of people you see screaming their heads off about how meat is absolutely essential to the human diet and that vegetarians/vegans are idiots for going against nature in threads like this one is outright exasperating.

As a vegetarian I can 100% that kids should not be growing up vegan. It is not good for their development, especially if you aren't eating right. Vegetarian maybe, but even that is hard to stay healthy. I've gained a decent chunk of weight since I switched to vegetarianism because I wasn't eating the right foods, and it is much harder to stay full. Now I've gotten a good hold on my health and feel great. don't want to eat meat for moral reasons but I recognize that the diet isn't as healthy as it is touted if done incorrectly.

While obviously they have a choice to what they serve at lunch and an adult with children has a choice of attendance, I don't think a vegan diet is that great for such young children. Vegans need supplements for B12 and occasionally Vitamin D, Vitamin K, Iron, and Zinc. Depending on the age (if elderly or very young) Vitamin A can be hard to synthesis in the body too from just fruits and veggies. Faster growing kids will need additional calories and supplements over average growing children, which can be taxing if your eating a filling, high fiber vegan diet. Sometimes you need that calorie dense but nutritional and protein filled foods. Not having adequate complete proteins to repair oneself could stunt physical performance too. Creatine is another one, its made in the body but eating additional sources of it or supplementing it is shown to increase cognitive performance. I really don't think any kids of any age want to live off supplements just to be balanced and "normal". A balanced diet without abunch of refined sugars and 80% or more of meat being non-red meat like poultry and fish is very healthy and fulfill every nutritional need. Watch your calorie intake and make portions right, exercise and supplement what you wish based on your ideal body image and you won't have any issues. I will point out vegan mothers expecting and vegan mothers nursing do need some sort of supplements and help too, it's not good for them or their baby to be on a strict diet like that in such states, there's plenty of research and actually cases that go back and forth on this but it wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't for such a diet in the first place. [url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25076673[/url]

[QUOTE=omarfr;53203001]As a vegetarian I can 100% that kids should not be growing up vegan. It is not good for their development, especially if you aren't eating right. Vegetarian maybe, but even that is hard to stay healthy. I've gained a decent chunk of weight since I switched to vegetarianism because I wasn't eating the right foods, and it is much harder to stay full. Now I've gotten a good hold on my health and feel great. don't want to eat meat for moral reasons but I recognize that the diet isn't as healthy as it is touted if done incorrectly.[/QUOTE]of course it's not healthy if not done correctly. You can eat nothing but oreos, chips and coke and be considered vegan. You can also eat nothing but steak and coke and you're eating an unhealthy diet too. Frankly, it's not hard to eat a plant based diet correctly with proper education. You still get all your necessary nutrients very easily and feel full and have a proper number of calories. In the words of Michael Pollan - "eat food, not too much, mostly plants"

Its all about dieting. vegan food can be just as unhealthy as non vegan food. Vegan food are unhealthy af if they are deep fried or use tons of oil.

My problem with this is that most vegan parents probably have no actual clue what their kids would need to grow up correctly vegan. That is actually a problem with vegans a lot of the time, which isn't really a problem if they do it wrong them self. Problem comes when they just shove that on their kids (or even pets in some cases). This kindergarden hopefully has proper experts that can make the vegan meals work there, I still fear that the kind of parents that send them there are often the kind that has no clue how to correctly supply their kids at home.

I'd rather parents actually care about what their kids eat than just tossing them a bunch of shit junk food for lunches without thought and letting them get fat/diabetes, I don't see the problem.