[video=youtube;p-HRrtbQsv8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-HRrtbQsv8[/video]
[highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Gimmick" - Mezzokoko))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=P.;53061687]
Could you tell me how exactly she was pressured into it?[/QUOTE]
My guess? Most likely a technicality. "Comeonnn please?..... CommonnnnPlease?...... Plesassseeee?" is being pressured - just repeating yourself and asking more than one [B][U][I]SINGLE[/I][/U][/B] time is, by pure definition - pressure, or more specifically giving pressure. If I ask you for a smoke, you say nah man - for whatever reason you may have barring below - and I ask you again even though you said no like 10 minutes ago, but this time you say yes: you have [I]technically[/I] given to pressure.
The one way I believe to make that void, is a situation where you are objectively unable to do so. Common situation: you're carrying something and physically can not use your own hands, that's a reason that is [U]free from your own feelings and opinion on the matter.[/U] That part is important to this, it needs to be absolutely objective. Any time you've been asked to do/give something and are literally unable to regardless if you actually want to or not, is the only time you can truly say you were not pressured into it, as you could not physically accomplish the task/question and had no choice but to deny whatever you were being asked.
[QUOTE=Anzan;53061712]One single post, account created today, last activity was literally the same time as that one post and not a minute after[/QUOTE]
[]TRUTH
[✔️]DOUBT
Alright which one of you is throwing burner accounts around. :v:
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;53061723]This thread is confusing as hell. It has to be said though that consent for y act doesn’t translate into consent for every other act imaginable. Say if you just don’t like anal, being eaten out doesn’t your partner has “unlocked” the same way it might not translate into vaginal sex. If someone isn’t feeling it, the proceeding sex acts don’t factor.
As for whether he’s some sexual predator I have no idea.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that the narrative presented by the babe.net article puts him in the same light as someone like Woody Allen or Harvey Weinstein when the situation presented is completely different in nature, as in, they both knew they were having sex, she just didn't like the way he acted which made her uncomfortable. I'm not saying that people deserve to be treated like this, I'm just saying that it happens, it's not criminal, it's what happens when people don't have chemistry and don't feel the same way about each other, while also not communicating that well. A bad sexual encounter does not equal rape.
What worries me more is that this is also a site that has had very little impact in the past, and now seems to have broken into the public consciousness as a result of these allegations. It seems like they're trying to ride the wave of the current media frenzy about Hollywood sex offenders by exaggerating the events presented.
Well, Aziz was being a right proper retard according to that story. With that said, I really hope she used this encounter to reflect on her own lack of assertiveness in the face of an uncomfortable situation rather than just comfortably make herself into a helpless victim. It's not just men needing to be taught to notice cues that they're pushing boundaries they shouldn't push, it's also women who need to be taught to say [I]no[/I]. Aziz was not raping her and not forcing her to do anything.
[QUOTE=Maloof?;53061678]There's also a lot of documentation around a tendency to freeze up and be unable to think clearly or even physically move when being sexually assaulted, which makes sense given the mosuse and abuse of our most imtimate act.
Its absolutely not as simple as 'she's an adult she should have left[/QUOTE]
I think this freeze up point is an important note. Let's say someone breaks into a house but the owner is still home. Maybe the owner is shocked or panicked and just freezes in fear and doesn't say anything. The stranger grabs a TV and runs out the door. Nobody is gonna say "well he clearly wanted his TV to be stolen because he didn't speak up when the robber was there!"
Obviously in sexual encounters it might be different; people may misinterpret their partner's silence for consent. MAYBE it was an honest mistake and they didn't intend to cause harm by advancing like that. But that doesn't make the feelings go away.
:snip: guess he was even more forceful than I thought.
[QUOTE=Anderan;53061757]I really wouldn't compare this to someone breaking into a house. More like a guest starts eating all of your food and you just keep kinda mumbling you want them to leave or just making vague motions towards the door.
Now if he straight up just forcibly pulled her pants down, then it would be comparable to a burglary.[/QUOTE]
He kinda did tho
[quote]“He said something along the lines of, ‘How about you hop up and take a seat?’” Within moments, he was kissing her. “In a second, his hand was on my breast.” [B]Then he was undressing her, then he undressed himself. [/B]She remembers feeling uncomfortable at how quickly things escalated.[/quote]
[editline]18th January 2018[/editline]
Really, you should all read the full recollection of events and not this chopped down article. It's a lot more telling.
[url]https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355[/url]
Why is every male celeb getting sexual assault/harassment charges in the past year/month?
Me thinks Weinstien is bringing everyone down.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;53061646]what is with the victim blaming in this thread
this is a societal problem where too many horny men just ignore the other party not being into their advances despite very obvious body language (and just regular-ass language), and as a result of the general subjugation of women, feeling pressured into doing things they don't want to do or "not objecting strongly enough" to advances they don't want (especially with the power dynamic of one of them being a celebrity in this case). people using the "mind-reader" argument is a really good litmus test of people who have literally 0 introspection. if anyone has the time, you should listen to dan harmon's addressal/apology of his actions on his podcast, because his point of 'just think about it' is good. men don't want to think too deeply about it, because they'll probably uncover their own similar behavior, and even many women don't want to think about it because they might discover all those times they've been made to feel really uncomfortable or pressured is part of a big overwhelming problem.
"maybe she should have done this maybe she should have done that" is you saying it's her own fault for feeling the way she felt, violated, despite showing both verbal and non verbal cues of not being into his advances, and probably feeling pressured and caving in to them. it's a horny dude not thinking of how he's making someone else feel and ignoring everything other than his urges. and if you want to argue he didn't do anything legally wrong, you're still placing the minutiae of law over the feelings of women, which is dope. legally okay doesn't necessarily mean morally okay. i'm not saying law isn't important, but it's not the be all and end all of how it's okay to act.[/QUOTE]
I too have incredible difficulty walking away from things I don't want to do.
It's not like she was chloroformed, tied up, and raped. She got caught up in something where halfway into it she decided she had made a mistake. That is NOT sexual assault. Regretting your own decisions is NOT assault. It would have been if when she said no he actually went so far as to force her to do it. But he didn't.
Edit
"After I sucked him off and he ate my pussy he just didn't get the message that I didn't want his dick in me because I was uncomfortable, there was nothing I could do because this person is a celebrity and famous. It's not like I could have just walked away after he demonstrated we were not sexually compatible" is the basic summation of this entire experience. Does that sound ridiculous to you? Does that sound like assault to you?
[QUOTE=aydin690;53061663]Nobody was pressured into anything. She's a grown ass woman and has agency. "mumbles" as she puts them, are not verbal cues.
She left her date when she met Aziz Ansari to hang out with him instead. Then they flirt for a couple of weeks, go on a date, then she goes back to his apartment, gets naked herself and they start performing oral sex on each other. Is sex not implied? She never explicitly says no. If you are not comfortable with the situation and don't want to engage in any sexual activities why are you naked in his apartment blowing him? How about you just say 'No Aziz, i don't want to blow you or have sex with you'? Those are basic adult things and if you can't do that then you probably shouldn't be having sex. Not comfortable? Get dressed and leave. Maybe later and shit can be interpreted as wanting more foreplay.[/QUOTE]
His whole point is that the general atmosphere of our society prevents women from "explicitly saying no"
And your whole[quote]She left her date when she met Aziz Ansari to hang out with him instead. Then they flirt for a couple of weeks, go on a date, then she goes back to his apartment, gets naked herself and they start performing oral sex on each other. Is sex not implied?[/quote]
part is just...ugh.
No, no it is not implied.
[quote]How about you just say 'No Aziz, i don't want to blow you or have sex with you'? Those are basic adult things and if you can't do that then you probably shouldn't be having sex.[/quote]
Wtf is this shit, the whole POINT of the discussion is that women feel pressured into these situations.
[QUOTE=Killuah;53061805]Wtf is this shit, the whole POINT of the discussion is that women feel pressured into these situations.[/QUOTE]
Just because someone's famous doesn't mean you have to listen and do everything they say. They are not symbols of authority and they should stop being treated as such.
[QUOTE=haloguy234;53061808]Just because someone's famous doesn't mean you have to listen and do everything they say. They are not symbols of authority and they should stop being treated as such.[/QUOTE]
That's a mighty fine shiny white goal but the reality is a bit different.
And thinking in "have to" and "have not to" categories seems a bit infantile to me tbh.
[QUOTE=Killuah;53061819]That's a mighty fine shiny white goal but the reality is a bit different.[/QUOTE]
Ah yeah, you're right. Next time I see the Rock and he tells me to suck his dick there is absolutely no way I can say no to that. Nope. No way at all. I'm completely powerless in the presence of fame and if I want to be somebody I just have to do it. If only there was some way to just ignore all of that and simply say no. Really makes you think.
Like, I get it. I do. People of status abusing their status to do things they shouldn't do. But the only way that can be solved is if the behavior is no longer given the opportunity to flourish. The only way to stop it is to stop letting them get away with it. This particular situation is a far cry from Harvey Weinstein. This is, as I said earlier, someone deciding halfway into it they've made a mistake. That's not sexual assault nor is it the same thing as a director extorting sexual favors out of actresses in exchange for moving them up the ladder of fame in Hollywood.
Edit
[QUOTE=Killuah;53061819]And thinking in "have to" and "have not to" categories seems a bit infantile to me tbh.[/QUOTE]
Sick ad hominem bro.
Most unfortunate, I liked the guy's work. I'm just going to wait and see what happens next and if more people come forward or more information comes to light, but reading that article, all I could think of was his parents reading that shit :frown:
[QUOTE=Antimuffin;53061630]There is so much risk nowadays when getting into a relationship with a woman or getting it on with a girl in bed. She might regret the sex and accuse you of rape. She might see anything (from a compliment to a badly made joke) as sexual harassment. And then you have problems because the words of the woman are more worth than yours. It's no wonder that guys become more cautious and careful. You just never know nowadays. Just look at the male students that have to leave college with no process and are branded as sex offenders forever. Or the soldiers that have lost their career opportunities because some woman lied about something.
The consequences for men who don't have any proof for anything (consenting for example) are harsh and merciless. Talking mainly about the risk here and I can understand men who are very careful nowadays. Of course not every woman is like that.[/QUOTE]
if you think there's "so much risk nowadays" I'm afraid you're not in reality. How about actually communicating with whoever the person is and actually reading and listening as to whether they want sex regardless of how much you want it, it's really not difficult. Each story where this comes up, there's always some gray area or issue that's come up from either not being clear or not taking a subtle hint.
This isn't an issue in the real world, definitely can't say it's ever been an issue for me, maybe the fault may be for "traditional" thinking on the male side?
I don't think Aziz is a sex offender but the woman apparently said multiple times she didn't want to be stabbed by his pork sword, yet he kept on making advancements. If you nosh on a cock, that still isn't a "so she surely must've wanted sex". She can sit on your face for all that matters, if she says she don't want to bang, she don't want to bang. He didn't rape her, but 💯% didn't take the very obvious hint IMO.
there is no solution like the people in uproar are asking for. what, do we just bar male celebrities from having sex anymore since they are in a "position of power"?
To me the obvious answer would be for her to just leave way early in the encounter. Like if I was at a girl's house and I don't want to have sex and something like this started to happen, I would leave and i definitely wouldn't go down on her.
But I've seen so many women share this article and say, "this has happened to me," and it's insane that what looks so obvious to me is not even imagined as an option by women. Even lots of women I care deeply about and respect in my life are sharing this reply.
If that isn't a burning indict about the way our culture socializes women, I don't know that is.
This shit just belittles real sexual assault. She made a decision to suck him off and he stopped when she told him to. Like I'm sorry but fuck off that's not assault. Position of power or not it's still not assault.
[QUOTE=haloguy234;53061830]Ah yeah, you're right. Next time I see the Rock and he tells me to suck his dick there is absolutely no way I can say no to that. Nope. No way at all. I'm completely powerless in the presence of fame and if I want to be somebody I just have to do it. If only there was some way to just ignore all of that and simply say no. Really makes you think.
Like, I get it. I do. People of status abusing their status to do things they shouldn't do. But the only way that can be solved is if the behavior is no longer given the opportunity to flourish. The only way to stop it is to stop letting them get away with it. This particular situation is a far cry from Harvey Weinstein. This is, as I said earlier, someone deciding halfway into it they've made a mistake. That's not sexual assault nor is it the same thing as a director extorting sexual favors out of actresses in exchange for moving them up the ladder of fame in Hollywood.
Edit
Sick ad hominem bro.[/QUOTE]
I was explicitly not writing "YOUR thinking"
[editline]18th January 2018[/editline]
I agree that it's a bit far fetched to deal with it under "sexual assault" but this only shows that we lack the legal and debating tools for stuff like this and this is part of the problem as well.
[editline]18th January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=Flameon;53061960]To me the obvious answer would be for her to just leave way early in the encounter. Like if I was at a girl's house and I don't want to have sex and something like this started to happen, I would leave and i definitely wouldn't go down on her.
But I've seen so many women share this article and say, "this has happened to me," and it's insane that what looks so obvious to me is not even imagined as an option by women. Even lots of women I care deeply about and respect in my life are sharing this reply.
If that isn't a burning indict about the way our culture socializes women, I don't know that is.[/QUOTE]
I've been in in Aziz situation before. I'm not a celebrity but we went down on each other and when it came to the point of sex she said that she doesn't want to and the asshole younger me was butthurt about that and tried to talk her into it and it's very shameful.
And this made me realize that sexual contact does NOT imply penetration and so on.
I hope some of the posters in here can learn that as well and in a better way than I did.
[url]https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/17/16893896/babe-aziz-ansari-sexual-misconduct-new-journalism-millennials-platform-reporting[/url]
[quote]“What the fuck is babe dot net?” is a fair question. Many of the baffling reporting choices around the story make a lot more sense once you understand what Babe is: a women-focused spin-off of the controversial media startup The Tab. Founded in 2009, The Tab launched as a series of campus-specific blogs written primarily by unpaid writers and editors who could earn “prize money” by hitting specific page-view goals. This incentive-based structure led to a two-pronged approach to content: anodyne “relatable” blog posts that take little time to write and circulate widely on Facebook, and controversial opinion or topical news reactions that can go viral by inciting conversational rage. The Tab’s editorial history includes several minor news scoops and far more scandals, including April Fool’s hoaxes, a butt-rating contest, and a tendency to skirt around questions about unpaid labor by calling themselves not a publication, but “between a platform and a publisher.”[/quote]
[url]http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/15/media/aziz-ansari-babe-editor-interview/index.html[/url]
[quote]The circumstances surrounding the story remain unclear. [b]Herrmann said Babe.net "heard about this story through personal networks, and then had to speak to a lot of different people before we got to the source. Our reporter Katie Way approached her, not the other way round."[/b][/quote]
[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;53061996][url]https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/17/16893896/babe-aziz-ansari-sexual-misconduct-new-journalism-millennials-platform-reporting[/url]
[url]http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/15/media/aziz-ansari-babe-editor-interview/index.html[/url][/QUOTE]
Yeah so that's a lot closer to what I thought, an unscrupulous journalist tries to make a name for herself during this wave of sex scandals in Hollywood by blowing up a non story, at the expense of Aziz Ansari's career. This kind of shit heavily harms the entire movement, it turns things into a media circus and a witchhunt, and reduces public confidence in the accusations.
I know it's Jezebel, it's an opinion piece, and there's some fluff tossed in here and there but [URL="https://jezebel.com/babe-what-are-you-doing-1822114753"]this piece[/URL] points out many of the issues this incident has brought up. In particular, I'll quote this one paragraph:
[quote]Flanagan repeatedly acknowledges the generation gap between her sexual experiences with men and Grace’s, but fundamentally misunderstands the motivation for the “strength” she cites; the slapping and yelling wasn’t because women were better, stronger, gutsier, or grittier in the old days: this struggle was tied up inextricably in female purity and the stakes a woman faced in her eventual, and all but obligatory married life—where, by the way, once there, she had no recourse should her husband rape her. Flanagan also goes on to ascribe Grace’s “weakness” to a condescending presumption that Grace simply wanted companionship and perhaps commitment from Ansari, without considering that Grace might have just been trying to have a casual sexual exchange in which the actions were equal. That part is not so much a generation gap as it is a retrograde, cynical act of magical inference that does nothing but uphold patriarchy.[/quote]
On a related note, there's this twisted idea that a victim has to actively fight back with all their might, and the slightest hint that they weren't trying their best to get out of the situation means that they were complicit in the assault and thus not deserving of any sympathy whatsoever. It's pretty apparent from the public response to this that this mindset is unfortunately very prevalent.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;53062074]On a related note, there's this twisted idea that a victim has to actively fight back with all their might, and the slightest hint that they weren't trying their best to get out of the situation means that they were complicit in the assault and thus not deserving of any sympathy whatsoever. It's pretty apparent from the public response to this that this mindset is unfortunately very prevalent.[/QUOTE]
I don't think expecting an adult woman to get up and leave, when she's freely able to do so, is unreasonable.
If that is unreasonable, then we're dealing with the mentality of a child, not an adult. We might need to go back to the days of chaperoned dates to ensure that the poor woman doesn't get taken advantage of.
There's a huge issue with one of the reactions to this. People seem to be looking at this, hearing "but it wasn't [I]actually[/I] sexual assault, so who cares?" and brushing it off but [I]that's not the point at all.[/I]
Aziz didn't get blasted for not "being a mind reader" or anything like that. He got blasted for being a scummy, pushy date and he [I]deserves it.[/I] People are saying "but why didn't she leave though" as if it excuses Aziz's actrions, as if it's saying "well what he didn't apparently wasn't so bad because she didn't leave."
She shouldn't [I]have[/I] to leave. She shouldn't [I]have[/I] to do anything to justify saying "what he did was kind of douchey." Because he was, and plenty of other men have done it, and plenty of other men will continue to do it, and [I]that's[/I] the problem.
There's a pattern of "well, she's not pushing me off/saying no, so that's good enough for me" going on. Which on paper sounds like "okay, I guess that's okay, it's not assault or anything" but then I try to imagine trying to have sex with someone where my justification is "she's not saying no or anything," and it feels creepy. We should be looking for a "yes" not a "well she seemed okay with it."
Just because it's not illegal doesn't mean it's not wrong. It was wrong, and that needs to be said and listened to.
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;53062146]There's a huge issue with one of the reactions to this. People seem to be looking at this, hearing "but it wasn't [I]actually[/I] sexual assault, so who cares?" and brushing it off but [I]that's not the point at all.[/I]
Aziz didn't get blasted for not "being a mind reader" or anything like that. He got blasted for being a scummy, pushy date and he [I]deserves it.[/I] People are saying "but why didn't she leave though" as if it excuses Aziz's actrions, as if it's saying "well what he didn't apparently wasn't so bad because she didn't leave."
She shouldn't [I]have[/I] to leave. She shouldn't [I]have[/I] to do anything to justify saying "what he did was kind of douchey." Because he was, and plenty of other men have done it, and plenty of other men will continue to do it, and [I]that's[/I] the problem.
There's a pattern of "well, she's not pushing me off/saying no, so that's good enough for me" going on. Which on paper sounds like "okay, I guess that's okay, it's not assault or anything" but then I try to imagine trying to have sex with someone where my justification is "she's not saying no or anything," and it feels creepy. We should be looking for a "yes" not a "well she seemed okay with it."
Just because it's not illegal doesn't mean it's not wrong. It was wrong, and that needs to be said and listened to.[/QUOTE]
Calling someone out on being sleazy and pushy is one thing,going to a magazine and trying to ruin someones career because you were unable to leave or say no earlier on your own volition is another.
Just because she didn't say no doesn't mean she consented
Consent can be withdrawn during the act
Applying [I]continuous[/I] pressure to somebody who doesn't know how to react is forcing yourself upon them
Exploiting a person's obvious interest in you for a quick fuck is slimy
Aziz is a softboy
Don't victim blame
That said, the whole media circuit about this feels like a through and through hit piece, and it shouldn't be thrown to a pack of rabid dogs to chew apart.
this one time, a good female friend of mine invited me back to her dorm room, and then slathered me with drinks whilst we watched movies in her bed. then she got on top of me, started grinding, took her shirt off, kissing me. we were at it for a solid 20 minutes, and then I leaned over to her ear and whispered these atrocious words: "would you like me to go down on you?"
she jumped off me, told me to get the fuck out, and called me a pig. was really fucking surreal, I was drunk as fuck and wondering what I'd done wrong. was even more embarrassing that I had to walk through the female dorms at like 12:30am in a state of semi undress. turns out asking a girl who's tongue fucking your mouth if you wanna go down on her is chauvinistic or something.
I left, and she called ten minutes later apologizing but I ducked it so hard, she was crazy. ever since that encounter (I was 20 at the time? or 21?) I've had a real hard time being confident and forward with women, cause I'm scared as fuck that something like that will happen again (it's pretty soul crushing, it makes you feel like a scumbag). this article just further cements that fear
[QUOTE=Tudd;53061581]Aziz is a douche (and now I know incredibly sleezy and disgusting) and I dislike him, but having read the story twice over, the accuser [i]seriously[/i] did not give him “clear non-verbal cues” after getting naked with him, letting him go down on her, giving him a blowjob twice, and finally said no when he wanted sex, [b]which at that point he did stop[/b], but she still stayed around to be prodded at.
[B]Not like Aziz or any guy is going to think he can’t get anything less than what he already has gotten. So ofcourse he keeps trying to get more.[/B]
I feel bad for any lady that has to experience Aziz’s sex move “the Claw” (fucking what?), but this person had some serious red flags (being told what to wear, ordered to drink every wine glass, the oyster bar) to know he probably wasn’t wanting to play checkers at his apartment.
Two of the most daft people went on a date.[/QUOTE]
Really? Why is it taken as an axiomatic truth that men are horny pigs who will go all out to get everything they want out of a sexual situation, and that women should be the ones to control those urges for them, and to say no and get out of a situation themselves if they don't want it to continue? Why is everyone assuming that she didn't want [I]any[/I] sexual contact at all in the first place? What if she went in wanting to get intimate with him, but over the course of the encounter she started to realise how pushy and gross he was being and therefore changed her mind? And why are people blaming her for changing her mind halfway through?
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;53062259]And why are people blaming her for changing her mind halfway through?[/QUOTE]
Who has done that? What people are criticizing her for is blaming him for assaulting her because she changed her mind half-way through.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;53062259]Really? Why is it taken as an axiomatic truth that men are horny pigs who will go all out to get everything they want out of a sexual situation, and that women should be the ones to control those urges for them, and to say no and get out of a situation themselves if they don't want it to continue? Why is everyone assuming that she didn't want [I]any[/I] sexual contact at all in the first place? What if she went in wanting to get intimate with him, but over the course of the encounter she started to realise how pushy and gross he was being and therefore changed her mind? [B]And why are people blaming her for changing her mind halfway through?[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure no one is blaming her for that,but rather that she's accusing him of sexual assault.
No one is implying women should be the ones controlling men's sexual urges,and they should not.What is the problem is the amount of mixed messages she was sending a horny drunk guy (here's a shocker when someone is horny and drunk,they aren't able to tell less obvious ques).They both were naked at his apartment,drinking wine,performing oral sex even.To most people,especially when they're drunk that's a really big indicator that the other person wants to have sex.
Telling the other person when they ask you when they are gonna have sex "Next Time" is also an indicator that you want to have sex.
And here's a shocker,saying no is a great indicator that you don NOT want to have sex.
Which she did.
Which then Aziz did stop.
This whole mess could have been resolved sooner had she been more clear.
Aziz may be sleazy and pushy,disgusting even,but that has little to do with anything.
No one is saying that she should have sex with him,or that she is to blame for changing her mind half way trough (even though she did not want to have sex from the start i think????),what they are saying is that she should have been clearer with her intentions (or non-intentions,idk).
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
