I really don't see what the big deal here is. They just weren't compatible together, Azi wanted it anyways and the moment she said no he backed off.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53069349]So they don't exist? That's not true by any stretch.[/QUOTE]
Nope, I wouldn't go that far. But I still haven't encountered them, and [I]certainly[/I] wouldn't consider them a majority.
[quote]Please. For the love of god, stop putting words in my mouth. The ONLY thing I've said about this is that communication is a two way street, and that you clearly are not treating it that way.[/QUOTE]
I haven't argued against two-way at all. I've said repeatedly "yes, they should speak up." And I'm sorry, but arguing against "you should ask your partner if they seem uncomfortable" and saying "but what about" comes off as "that's too much to ask for." And perhaps not you specifically, but people in the thread have certainly been saying "no that's silly, why would I do that" at the least, or extrapolating it into "asking constantly over and over" and then saying that's silly, at the most.
[quote]And I hate to say this, but that's true. It is their job. The only thing I feel you're doing is saying that if bad things happen, it's because men aren't doing enough. If someone asks, and the answer they get back is a yes, and they proceed but that yes wasn't "genuine" then you haven't changed the situation at all. I genuinely feel the only way to change the situation is have the people who are uncomfortable, be assertive about that. If the person is obviously uncomfortable then yes, I will ask. But that assumes two things.
1) I have the ability to notice that, or the desire to notice it and
2) that you simply being uncomfortable bothers me.[/QUOTE]
"That yes wasn't genuine" is a rarer scenario. Many problems would be avoided through asking "hey, are you okay" than otherwise. Just asking once would let a person feel able to say "actually no" at best, and at worst, that person says "you're asking too much, it's a turn off" and that to me tells me they're a poor partner.
And you [I]should[/I] have the desire you notice and them being uncomfortable [I]should[/I] bother you. Why wouldn't it? I feel like that one is poor wording, because the implication that someone being uncomfortable doesn't bother you is extremely creepy.
[quote]The bad people, like Aziz from this article, or in other instances will have no compulsion to follow through on this. However, an "Enthusiastic no" would probably have more effect. Who am I to say though. Maybe relying on the Harvey Weinsteins of the world to say "is this okay?" is the better option?[/QUOTE]
People being told to be considerate of their partner and ask them if they're okay is relatively new, and is an attitude I feel should be put right into sex education and become common sense.
And you're absolutely correct. An ehtusiastic no would have more effect, and that should definitely be encouraged. Without a doubt. I still, however, stand by saying you should ask your partner if they seem uncomfortable.
[quote]I feel it's absurd that I have to say this, but almost no one, at least not me or srobins has actually at any point in time said in any way, shape, or form that its "Too much to ask", but you keep repeating this.[/QUOTE]
When people try to argue, or say anything other than "that sounds like a good idea" to "be considerate and ask your partner," it definitely comes off as "that's too much to ask for."
[editline]21st January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53069442]Edited is the wrong word, but clipped them certainly.[/QUOTE]
If I've ignored a specific point through clipping, I apologize and chalk it up to missing it/mixing it with another one.
[editline]21st January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=Arrk;53069443]I really don't see what the big deal here is. They just weren't compatible together, Azi wanted it anyways and the moment she said no he backed off.[/QUOTE]
He backed off and then came back again.
[editline]21st January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53069349]Yes, but this article was about a one night stand between acquaintances who knew each other non-romantically. do you really expect them to establish safewords?
Communication is key. It is however, a two way street at all times.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, expecting safe-words is actually a bit much for a casual sex, especially an initial hook up. I mean, you [I]can,[/I] but I've certainly never have done it. Safe words are more for intense things, anyway.
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;53069452]Nope, I wouldn't go that far. But I still haven't encountered them, and [I]certainly[/I] wouldn't consider them a majority.[/QUOTE]
I didn't state that at any point they were.
[QUOTE]
I haven't argued against two-way at all. I've said repeatedly "yes, they should speak up." And I'm sorry, but arguing against "you should ask your partner if they seem uncomfortable" and saying "but what about" comes off as "that's too much to ask for." And perhaps not you specifically, but people in the thread have certainly been saying "no that's silly, why would I do that" at the least, or extrapolating it into "asking constantly over and over" and then saying that's silly, at the most.[/QUOTE]
You read us saying "they should speak up" as "That's too much to ask". I read you saying "you should ask this" as "it's not their job to speak for themselves unless asked".
[QUOTE]
"That yes wasn't genuine" is a rarer scenario. Many problems would be avoided through asking "hey, are you okay" than otherwise. Just asking once would let a person feel able to say "actually no" at best, and at worst, that person says "you're asking too much, it's a turn off" and that to me tells me they're a poor partner.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying don't ask. I'm saying there's a responsibility on each partner to speak their minds. In most relationships this isn't an issue. In one night stands or what not, there's no background to go on, so this can kill the mood if done too frequently, or can be read any number of ways.
[QUOTE]
And you [I]should[/I] have the desire you notice and them being uncomfortable [I]should[/I] bother you. Why wouldn't it? I feel like that one is poor wording, because the implication that someone being uncomfortable doesn't bother you is extremely creepy.
[/QUOTE]
Yes. You should. I'm not denying this, and your assertions are really a low brow way to get your point across. I am not speaking about myself, I am speaking in generalities. You're [B]genuinely[/B] asking the Harvey Weinsteins and the like of the world to care about things they've shown they do not care about. I am not talking about me. I am talking about the problem people, who should be your focus. Not taking cheap shots at the person talking to you.
[QUOTE]People being told to be considerate of their partner and ask them if they're okay is relatively new, and is an attitude I feel should be put right into sex education and become common sense.[/QUOTE]
I really don't think it is as I was taught this 10 years, closer to 12 years ago. The sex ed class I had was not a new or revamped version of an old one.
[QUOTE]And you're absolutely correct. An ehtusiastic no would have more effect, and that should definitely be encouraged. Without a doubt. I still, however, stand by saying you should ask your partner if they seem uncomfortable.[/QUOTE]
I'm not, and have never said you should not ask your partner when they seem uncomfortable. I have always asserted that putting the responsibility on the party to notice the feeling of uncomfortably with a person who they may be new with is not a good way to go about things. I do not think asking is a bad idea.
[QUOTE]When people try to argue, or say anything other than "that sounds like a good idea" to "be considerate and ask your partner," it definitely comes off as "that's too much to ask for."
[/QUOTE]
Then you're simply shutting down and refusing to read anything anyone says to you, so I don't know why you're arguing besides to preach.
[QUOTE]
If I've ignored a specific point through clipping, I apologize and chalk it up to missing it/mixing it with another one.
[/QUOTE]
I asked you a direct question, I would still like an answer.
Under any other circumstance, would you have the expectation of someone else speaking up on your behalf?
If you are uncomfortable in a boardroom meeting, do you expect the room to turn to you, say "Are you uncomfortable with this?" rather than they expect you to speak up if it's truly important to you?
Under any other situation, does being uncomfortable deserve the other parties stopping, and questioning you?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53069464]I didn't state that at any point they were.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=srobins;53069164]And you're ignoring all the regular women who think this stuff is bullshit. You presume that the majority agrees with you because your viewpoint is the popular, "correct" viewpoint that is espoused by major figures.[/QUOTE]
I interpreted this post as saying "the majority actually disagrees with you."
[quote]You read us saying "they should speak up" as "That's too much to ask". I read you saying "you should ask this" as "it's not their job to speak for themselves unless asked".[/quote]
Then allow me to clarify. If someone is uncomfortable, yes, they should speak up. They shouldn't have to wait to be asked, and it is for the best for them to speak for themselve.
[quote]I'm not saying don't ask. I'm saying there's a responsibility on each partner to speak their minds. In most relationships this isn't an issue. In one night stands or what not, there's no background to go on, so this can kill the mood if done too frequently, or can be read any number of ways.[/quote]
Then don't do it frequently. And if it's read wrong, then I'd criticize the person reading it wrong.
[quote]Yes. You should. I'm not denying this, and your assertions are really a low brow way to get your point across. I am not speaking about myself, I am speaking in generalities. You're [B]genuinely[/B] asking the Harvey Weinsteins and the like of the world to care about things they've shown they do not care about. I am not talking about me. I am talking about the problem people, who should be your focus. Not taking cheap shots at the person talking to you.[/quote]
Fair. I was hearing your words of "that's not realistic for those men" as "that's not realistic, in general." Though I have heard the latter said, I apologize for misunderstanding you and putting you in a similar category.
[quote]I really don't think it is as I was taught this 10 years, closer to 12 years ago. The sex ed class I had was not a new or revamped version of an old one.[/quote]
Well, good! But I haven't, and I've heard other people say that they haven't, either, unfortunately.
[quote]I'm not, and have never said you should not ask your partner when they seem uncomfortable. I have always asserted that putting the responsibility on the party to notice the feeling of uncomfortably with a person who they may be new with is not a good way to go about things. I do not think asking is a bad idea.[/quote]
I apologize for misunderstanding and being wrong about you, then. Putting primary responsibility on the asking party is wrong, correct. Some responsibility, yes. But not all/primary.
[quote]Then you're simply shutting down and refusing to read anything anyone says to you, so I don't know why you're arguing besides to preach.[/quote]
I'm definitely not.
[quote]I asked you a direct question, I would still like an answer.
Under any other circumstance, would you have the expectation of someone else speaking up on your behalf?
If you are uncomfortable in a boardroom meeting, do you expect the room to turn to you, say "Are you uncomfortable with this?" rather than they expect you to speak up if it's truly important to you?
Under any other situation, does being uncomfortable deserve the other parties stopping, and questioning you?[/quote]
The boardroom metaphor helped me understand the question; I must have misread it and thought you were still talking about an intimate setting.
That said, no, because in an intimate encounter, the focus is on me and my partner, equally. In a meeting, I'm not the focus at all. I'm also in a potentially less intimidating situation. If I'm uncomfortable in a sexual setting and they continue, that can lead to me feeling used. Less so in other situations. Being uncomfortable during sex is much more common.
But for the question itself, if someone notices my discomfort, I would hope they would ask how I'm doing. I would say that outside of sex, considering someone else's discomfort is less of a priority, because it's much less of a common issue. If I had a friend who I knew to frequently be uncomfortable in random situations, I'd pay attention for their sake, but as a generalization, I would not be normally looking out for someone's discomfort in a common situation.
Safeword is definitely mostly used for kinks like bondage and stuff, but it takes no effort to go "hey, if I'm doing something you don't like, just say Nine Inch Nails"
Y'all are talking about sexual encounters like they're all the same, but there are some people, me included, who are extremely turned on when my partner [I]seems[/I] to be in distress - while they're loving it. So there are some grey areas, you can't just say "read the signals"
When I was 18, I was coerced into sex by my then ex-girlfriend. She was staying at my house for what was presented as one reason, but seemingly was an attempt to win me back. I'd never felt more disgusted with myself than after having sex that night. And I still think about it to this day, and caused me a lot of issues regarding trust. She appealed to my emotions, and after saying no multiple times, I still carried on with the sex. To this day though, I don't feel as if she was in the wrong. Perhaps I'm wrong in this, but she did not assault me, and ultimately I consented. I regretted it immediately, and it has caused me untold amounts of stress, anxiety and depression, but I will never accuse her of having forced herself upon me.
Sorry for the blogpost, but it seems that accusing Ansari of Assault only dampens the voices of those that have actually experienced sexual assaults.
[QUOTE=SebiWarrior;53069335]This thread is a mess of opinions
Ever hear about safewords? A way to get passionate and understand what the partner's okay with without asking for permission?[/QUOTE]
Who the fuck uses safe words during vanilla sex? She could have just said no, assuming this anonymous person is even telling the truth, we have fuck all ways of verifying it.
Like seriously whats so hard about saying no? Why does he have to read her mind with her "nonverbal cues". It's total bullshit.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;53070576]Who the fuck uses safe words during vanilla sex? She could have just said no, [/QUOTE]
Yeah, a safe word is very much unnecessary in any situation which is currently being discussed in the thread. A safe word is for when you might explicitly say "No" or "Stop" but not really mean it. Clearly that's not what's being talked about.
Honestly, Nikko, I get where you're coming from. I think you have the right idea about how things ought to be, I just don't think it's always as straightforward in practice as you depict. If everyone were a rational actor and sex were an easily-understood, universal subject, everything you say would be wholly accurate. It's just that in practice, I don't think it works out as cleanly as you suggest, and there are a lot of edge cases and grey area that make it complicated. Those edge cases may not be the most common result, but they're the ones that produce scandalous headlines and test our values as a society, so they're what we need to shape our values around.
I don't think you deserve a bunch of dumb ratings because I don't think you're being unreasonable; but you're looking at the normal, baseline case whereas we're concerned with the margins.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;53070651]Yeah, a safe word is very much unnecessary in any situation which is currently being discussed in the thread. A safe word is for when you might explicitly say "No" or "Stop" but not really mean it. Clearly that's not what's being talked about.[/QUOTE]
Not to proclaim myself a 'dungeon stuffs expert' but:
Though safe words are used for those purposes, yes, what they were actually created for was when you intentionally put yourself into a situation where you want to say 'no' and 'stop' but don't want the sex/scene to end -- even if you do mean it. Where being able to say 'no' and 'stop' without either word having any impact on what goes on is in fact enriching and empowering your experience. In other words, Safewords are for when you want to play with feeling powerless (or are engaging in much more risky stuff) -- but still want to maintain your power to end the sex/scene by saying something like 'Oranges' - a word that's not likely to come up unprovoked during that sex/scene that has nothing to do with what's going on and requires conscious and voluntary effort to speak.
Establishing a safeword, with the above in mind, in what's meant to be a casual fling is kind of overboard.
To analogize (because I love to analogize, sorry, and also felt it would benefit the thread to expand on 'why it's weird to bring up at all on a first date') it's a bit like sitting down at a Olive Garden with someone you're on a first date with and the waiter comes over with a birthday troupe to sing for them (because maybe it's their birthday, you thought) and asks whether you'll have the $400, $1000, or $10,000 bottle of wine and you opt for the third. It sends all sorts of confusing and 'klaxon blaring' alarms to the other person - an incredible escalation upwards from what they were comfortable with agreeing to when they decided to meet with you. Even if you go 'oh, that's not what this is' it's going to linger like a cloud over the rest of that date/encounter - because you've already indirectly implied 'but I expected and planned for it to be something much more and either expect you to adapt or expected you to be OK with that' - and might even prompt them to immediately call said thing off.
Normally the sorts of encounters that need a Safeword aren't ones you just 'decide to have with anyone' because they're usually risky in some manner or another. Even broaching the subject implies risky activities - which immediately means that either you're potentially expecting them to trust you with maybe their life on this fling-night or that you're putting your life in theirs. In either case, that's a huuuge step up from 'date night'.
To make a huge post short: Don't just hurl 'Safeword's around. If this is a casual fling, it [I]should be and should remain[/I] unnecessary because 'no' and 'stop' should serve just the same purpose to start with as they normally would.
[QUOTE=Slim Charles;53061564][URL]http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-42685796[/URL]
Article that broke the story [URL]https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355[/URL]
Just my personal opinion I believe how he acted was sleezy but I don't think it was sexual assault, nor do I think his career should be burned over this.[/QUOTE]
really? non verbal cues? just verbally say "no" is that so hard?
My safe word is "no".
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
