Man Or Woman? Androgynous Model Poses As Both To Challenge Gender Stereotypes (abit NSFW)

[Venomousbeetle]

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52198389]In what universe is this person 'ugly'[/QUOTE]

The article says by her own admission this started from seeing herself as ugly

She tells a story of how she used it to get jobs easier by presenting as either or depending on the job

[ayay]

[QUOTE=Aman;52198203]Wow an ugly man-like woman, what a revelation I've never seen an ugly person before.[/QUOTE]

This is pretty retarded because she actually has quite attractive (albeit unconventional for females) features as far as human beings are concerned so honestly it sounds more like youre being an asshole because she is daring to not conform to conventional feminine beauty standards. But oh no shes [i]ugly[/i]. Nice.

[editline]7th May 2017[/editline]

[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;52198426]The article says by her own admission this started from seeing herself as ugly[/QUOTE]

I can see why she would feel that way about herself because of the omnipresence of feminine beauty standards, itd be hard to go through life without getting shamed for it but im glad shes comfortable in her own skin and willing to own it.

[Mister Sandman]

[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;52198426]The article says by her own admission this started from seeing herself as ugly

She tells a story of how she used it to get jobs easier by presenting as either or depending on the job[/QUOTE]

Believing yourself to be ugly /=/ being ugly

[Noob©]

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52198092]If you're being serious please don't be actually transphobic based on dumb meme bullshit[/QUOTE]

I respect trans but I still think society should still only have 2 classification of gender. Please don't insist on others to address by a unique gender, do it in a special social circle, sure, not public. Stick to either male or female, whichever you want people to treat you as. We're still human with xy or xx chromosomes, put aside the insecurity and solidify a status.

In this case, this woman who looks like a man often get mistaken for a man, but still stood by and think that she's still a she. Nothing wrong with this.

[Atsuimono]

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52198389]In what universe is this person 'ugly'[/QUOTE]

this one

[153x]

[QUOTE=Aman;52198203]Wow an ugly man-like woman, what a revelation I've never seen an ugly person before.[/QUOTE]

Right cause a person's whole worth is based on attractiveness

[Mister Sandman]

[QUOTE=Shaohs;52198473]this one[/QUOTE]
Didn't see that easy response coming. I guess that's why they're a model and you're not, right? Cause they're ugly?
You should actually lower the fuck out of your standards if you think they're ugly, maybe they're not your type but calling them [I]ugly[/I] is just shitty
if they are what you'd call ugly I'd be very interested in seeing just how hot you are, I'd say you must be model level attractive but considering this person is literally a model you must have transcended that

[Turnips5]

there's an odd amount of hate in this thread especially considering how neutral the OP is

[editline]7th May 2017[/editline]

not a big amount, but it's there

[Mister Sandman]

[QUOTE=Turnips5;52198550]there's an odd amount of hate in this thread especially considering how neutral the OP is

[editline]7th May 2017[/editline]

not a big amount, but it's there[/QUOTE]

Woman no look like girly girl
WOMAN [I]BAD[/I]

[Turnips5]

true that it isn't really news though, but whatever, neither is matt furie killing pepe

[Atsuimono]

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52198504]Didn't see that easy response coming. I guess that's why they're a model and you're not, right? Cause they're ugly?
You should actually lower the fuck out of your standards if you think they're ugly, maybe they're not your type but calling them [I]ugly[/I] is just shitty
if they are what you'd call ugly I'd be very interested in seeing just how hot you are, I'd say you must be model level attractive but considering this person is literally a model you must have transcended that[/QUOTE]

the reason that they are a model is for publicity. Dove looks like an average person. for model standards, Dove is ugly. She wouldnt be a model if she wasnt a androgynous model

[Dracon]

[QUOTE=Noob4life;52198468]I respect trans but I still think society should still only have 2 classification of gender. Please don't insist on others to address by a unique gender, do it in a special social circle, sure, not public. Stick to either male or female, whichever you want people to treat you as. We're still human with xy or xx chromosomes, put aside the insecurity and solidify a status.

In this case, this woman who looks like a man often get mistaken for a man, but still stood by and think that she's still a she. Nothing wrong with this.[/QUOTE]

Your first sentence is completely contradictory.
Either way there isn't just XY and XX, there's also XXY, XYY, XXXX, and other such strange genetic things that can happen which ends up with people that aren't quite male, or aren't quite female, or other strangeness. Genetics is weird as fuck.
You can also have someone who is genetically male (XY) form completely female, or close to it (Swyer syndrome), no penis or anything
and XX people who form completely male, or very close to it (called de la Chapelle syndrome)

[Mister Sandman]

[QUOTE=Shaohs;52198572]the reason that they are a model is for publicity. Dove looks like an average person. for model standards, Dove is ugly. She wouldnt be a model if she wasnt a androgynous model[/QUOTE]

I think Dove is extremely attractive even by 'average people' standards. If what you said [I]were[/I] true, that she couldn't be a model if she wasn't an androgynous model (not that this carries much weight for me considering modelling agencies hardly have acceptable standards for women either), then should she not be congratulated for succeeding by doing something different?

[Noob©]

[QUOTE=Dracon;52198577]Your first sentence is completely contradictory.
Either way there isn't just XY and XX, there's also XXY, XYY, XXXX, and other such strange genetic things that can happen which ends up with people that aren't quite male, or aren't quite female, or other strangeness. Genetics is weird as fuck.
You can also have someone who is genetically male (XY) form completely female, or close to it (Swyer syndrome), no penis or anything
and XX people who form completely male, or very close to it (called de la Chapelle syndrome)[/QUOTE]

Thanks for informing. Not really considering special cases. But in the end I still believe they need to make up their mind on choosing one to stick with (or transitioning to another), just don't get stuck in between. I personally don't judge people based on their gender (or their lack of), but I can't speak for others. Sorry, the continent I live in literally don't have to deal with this.

[Mister Sandman]

[QUOTE=Noob4life;52198627]Thanks for informing. Not really considering special cases. But in the end I still believe they need to make up their mind on choosing one to stick with (or transitioning to another), just don't get stuck in between. I personally don't judge people based on their gender (or their lack of), but I can't speak for others. Sorry, the continent I live in literally don't have to deal with this.[/QUOTE]

We don't either. The amount of people who identify as neither a man or woman, or some other gender, is ludicrously low even among the trans population.
Anyway chromosomes shouldn't factor in to your thinking about gender. It has nothing to do with it and trying to talk about it, you're just gonna end up saying a bunch of wrong shit cause you don't have the college education to be qualified to say anything about it. My personal policy is to just call people what they wanna be called.

This model actually isn't trans from what I can tell, they're just androgynous. Meaning appearance wise they strive for something 'in the middle' of male and female. Not necessarily that they want you to call them 'they' or 'it' or whatever. For famous examples, think of like, David Bowie or Prince.

[SquidsEye]

[QUOTE=Noob4life;52198627]Thanks for informing. Not really considering special cases. But in the end [B]I still believe they need to make up their mind on choosing one to stick with[/B] (or transitioning to another), just don't get stuck in between. I personally don't judge people based on their gender (or their lack of), but I can't speak for others. Sorry, the continent I live in literally don't have to deal with this.[/QUOTE]

Why? If it makes them unhappy why should they be forced to identify as something they aren't comfortable with?

[Noob©]

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52198640]Anyway chromosomes shouldn't factor in to your thinking about gender. It has nothing to do with it and trying to talk about it, you're just gonna end up saying a bunch of wrong shit cause you don't have the college education to be qualified to say anything about it.[/QUOTE]

Really? I believe I'm talking about assigned sex, but I'll think about it.

[QUOTE=squids_eye;52198650]Why? If it makes them unhappy why should they be forced to identify as something they aren't comfortable with?[/QUOTE]

I don't care if they want to actually be identified as an attack helicopter, just that the people that I am surrounded with (in real life) would totally shun this special snowflake as trans are already considered incredibly abnormal. If your society accepts it, I'm fine, I'm very open-minded (I think). But please, just not where I live, things like that don't fly well here. Again, sorry if it seems like I'm offending people who are having trouble with their gender identity.

[gk99]

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;52197859]The message is pretty obvious, though? Even if you don't get it, the article spells it out for you. It's about challenging gender norms and breaking down barriers. You might say it's not a very strong or original message, but please don't be purposefully daft[/QUOTE]

I'm not being purposely daft? I'm not sure how a change of clothes is supposed to be challenging gender norms or how these images are supposed to impact me at all.Like I'm just looking at these like "you're a trans woman who looks the same minus in each image minus the clothes, why does this matter"

You can sit there telling me how much this is supposed to challenge social norms all you want but I'm not seeing it

[meppers]

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52198389]In what universe is this person 'ugly'[/QUOTE]

mine.

believe it or not, it is possible for someone to find a person that does not conform to their personal tastes.

[Sgman91]

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52198559]Woman no look like girly girl
WOMAN [I]BAD[/I][/QUOTE]

I don't really get this. Is a guy not allowed to find the traditional female gender attractive?

Without the more masculine hair cut she would look like a woman. Other than her height, her body proportions are already more feminine than masculine. Before reading the article, I thought she was a born woman transitioning to a man.

[153x]

[QUOTE=sgman91;52198838]I don't really get this. Is a guy not allowed to find the traditional female gender attractive?[/QUOTE]

It's not about that, it's about "I don't think she's attractive so that means nobody should"

You can like what you like without being discriminatory. It's when you start to judge a person's choices based on whether or not you find them attractive that you're in the wrong. It's a lot like how people excuse female teachers for raping male students because they think the teacher is hot.

[halfer]

[QUOTE=sgman91;52198838]I don't really get this. Is a guy not allowed to find the traditional female gender attractive?[/QUOTE]
I believe it's not about what you find physically attractive in the desired sex, it's about how you frame it; the poster made his viewpoint sound rash, almost as if he dismissed the person completely because of her looks

[zukriuchen]

[QUOTE=gk99;52198757]I'm not being purposely daft? I'm not sure how a change of clothes is supposed to be challenging gender norms or how these images are supposed to impact me at all.Like I'm just looking at these like "you're a trans woman who looks the same minus in each image minus the clothes, why does this matter"

You can sit there telling me how much this is supposed to challenge social norms all you want but I'm not seeing it[/QUOTE]

She's not even transgender, dude
If this doesn't make you see how her work as a model challenges gender expectations when your own expectation has been proven wrong then I don't know what to tell you

[Mister Sandman]

[QUOTE=meppers;52198800]mine.

believe it or not, it is possible for someone to find a person that does not conform to their personal tastes.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=sgman91;52198838]I don't really get this. Is a guy not allowed to find the traditional female gender attractive?
[/QUOTE]

there's a difference between "not my type" and being a dick calling people ugly or hating a woman because she's doing something that doesn't fit your idea of beauty

[Sgman91]

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52199147]there's a difference between "not my type" and being a dick calling people ugly or hating a woman because she's doing something that doesn't fit your idea of beauty[/QUOTE]

I mean, people called her ugly. Sure, it's really rude, I don't approve of it, but I don't think I would classify it as "hating a woman."

[Johnny Guitar]

[QUOTE=Turnips5;52198563]true that it isn't really news though, but whatever, neither is matt furie killing pepe[/QUOTE]

I hope nobody took my post as hateful, just got really fucking confused tbh

[♠️♥️♦️♣️]

unless someone's actively harming you in their actions and those taken are for a fairly good cause, misguided or not, i think it's for the best to support their endeavors by, at the very least, not criticizing them excessively.

for those that truly don't get it, this woman is trying to alter your view on femininity and masculinity. it's nothing that new or interesting. gender is a social construct, and the idea being presented is that it being strictly binary and/or defined by your sex can be toyed with pretty easily for those not born with the archetypal body. why do we cling onto these strict guidelines? will society fall apart without them? she clearly has a point, and even if it's not made well, is it harming you?

these threads are always difficult as i'm inclined to support those taking progressive stances but straying anywhere from perfect neutrality firmly paints you as someone that's either hateful and backwards or a regressive social justice guy.

i can easily accept that people think she's ugly but it's not exactly pertinent to what she's trying to say. it's pretty obviously not about being attractive.

[Smug Bastard]

[QUOTE=Noob4life;52198729]But please, just not where I live, things like that don't fly well here. Again, sorry if it seems like I'm offending people who are having trouble with their gender identity.[/QUOTE]

Where you're from is not an argument.

[Tetsmega]

[QUOTE=Smug Bastard;52201771]Where you're from is not an argument.[/QUOTE]

It's a good way to determine certain statistics though like education level, poverty level, etc.

So it never was an argument, but it sure explains why he might think that way.

[Arc Nova]

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52198504]Didn't see that easy response coming. I guess that's why they're a model and you're not, right? Cause they're ugly?
You should actually lower the fuck out of your standards if you think they're ugly, maybe they're not your type but calling them [I]ugly[/I] is just shitty
if they are what you'd call ugly I'd be very interested in seeing just how hot you are, I'd say you must be model level attractive but considering this person is literally a model you must have transcended that[/QUOTE]

Not saying anything about this particular model but this is stupid because being a model doesn't automatically mean you're attractive, there are plenty of ugly models. In fact, there are modeling agencies that specifically look for ugly people.