Third-graders are selling AR-15 raffle tickets in Missouri - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=cebceb44;53142436]i'm referring to it as 'military-grade' because the boost in muzzle velocity, compared to a handgun, means anything you shoot gets torn up like tissue paper. unlike with handguns, whose bullets often stop at the bone (and sure, it's messy, but proper medical treatment works wonders), rounds fired off from one of these pass right through. it's why this gun is constantly making headlines with it's high body count when used in mass shootings. sure, it's unfortunate as hell that the apparent 'swiss army knife of guns' gets a bad rap, but for things like self-defense, it's overkill. christ, [I]i live here[/I], and i still don't understand america's gun thing[/QUOTE] Like, nothing in this post is correct except your last line. My word. I don't even know where to start, so I'm just going to tell you to do some research. I'll try to explain a little as I go. "Military grade" is a meaningless buzzword. "Boost in muzzle velocity" makes no sense, I have handguns which are capable of the same or higher muzzle velocities than an AR-15 firing standard loads. Handguns tend to cause messier wounds than rifles. Passing through is often preferable. This gun makes headlines because it's uncommon for it to be used in crime, not the other way around.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;53142435]:disgust: this poor rifle[/QUOTE] Excuse me gore isn't allowed on this forum

[QUOTE=cebceb44;53142436]i'm referring to it as 'military-grade' because the boost in muzzle velocity, compared to a handgun, means anything you shoot gets torn up like tissue paper. unlike with handguns, whose bullets often stop at the bone (and sure, it's messy, but proper medical treatment works wonders), rounds fired off from one of these pass right through. it's why this gun is constantly making headlines with it's high body count when used in mass shootings. sure, it's unfortunate as hell that the apparent 'swiss army knife of guns' gets a bad rap, but for things like self-defense, it's overkill. christ, [I]i live here[/I], and i still don't understand america's gun thing[/QUOTE] My guy let me tell you if I ever get in to a situation where I need a gun to defend myself I want as much overkill in my hands and in the magazine as I can get my grubby burger-greased freedom loving mits on

If someone really hates guns they should buy as many raffle tickets as possible to win the gun and turn it in to the police, so the police can then turn around and auction it off along with their old weapons they already get rid of on a regular basis, thus continuing the ownership cycle. :privilege:

[QUOTE=Boaraes;53142407]I seriously don't understand why the AR-15 invokes responses like these. Is it because it looks scary or what? Would you rather prefer a Mini-14 or something?[/QUOTE] It's a matter of scale, to me. It's the same as, say, donating a nifty little utility knife versus donating a kukri. If you're going to donate a gun at a children's raffle wouldn't it make more sense to donate a firearm that's more to the scale of a child like something that shoots 22 ? I'm certainly not against children doing target practice since I got to do it when I was a kid and it was a blast, but there's better firearms to learn with as far as I'm concerned. Then again this is assuming a children's raffle would actually aim its prizes at children, I'm not sure most parents would be willing to win a rifle that costs at least a grand going by their website and give it to their kids. Seems like a mismanagement of funds.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;53142446]It entirely depends on what you're getting hit by. Handgun rounds don't often stop at bone, they [I]shatter[/I] bone. Proper 9mm can actually over penetrate if it's not a HP or JHP or soft point. While "rounds often pass through", a 5.56 does not have enough mass to punch through someone and have a meaningful amount of energy left to inflict serious harm.[/QUOTE] yeah, my wording was wrong on that. messy as hell, and can never be cleaned up perfectly. what i was going for was "at least it's survivable"

[QUOTE=cebceb44;53142452]yeah, my wording was wrong on that. messy as hell, and can never be cleaned up perfectly. what i was going for was "at least it's survivable"[/QUOTE] did you fall for the /k/ meme of 9mm being harmless also shots from an AR 15 are totally survivable

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;53142449]It's a matter of scale, to me. It's the same as, say, donating a nifty little utility knife versus donating a kukri. If you're going to donate a gun at a children's raffle wouldn't it make more sense to donate a firearm that's more to the scale of a child like something that shoots 22 ? I'm certainly not against children doing target practice since I got to do it when I was a kid and it was a blast, but there's better firearms to learn with as far as I'm concerned. Then again this is assuming a children's raffle would actually aim its prizes at children, I'm not sure most parents would be willing to win a rifle that costs at least a grand going by their website and give it to their kids. Seems like a mismanagement of funds.[/QUOTE] In my experience with these kinds of raffles, the items are rarely targeted at kids. We'd raffle off generic shit like cheese and wine baskets and free coupon booklets and what not.

[QUOTE=cebceb44;53142436]i'm referring to it as 'military-grade' because the boost in muzzle velocity, compared to a handgun, means anything you shoot gets torn up like tissue paper. unlike with handguns, whose bullets often stop at the bone (and sure, it's messy, but proper medical treatment works wonders), rounds fired off from one of these pass right through. it's why this gun is constantly making headlines with it's high body count when used in mass shootings. sure, it's unfortunate as hell that the apparent 'swiss army knife of guns' gets a bad rap, but for things like self-defense, it's overkill. christ, [I]i live here[/I], and i still don't understand america's gun thing[/QUOTE] I mean it's okay if you don't understand America's gun culture, it's not for everyone and that's fine, but please inform yourself properly It's misinformation like this that gives guns like the AR-15 such a bad rap, people read the headlines and associate AR-15 with mass shooting, even though there are approximately 5-10 million of them in the U.S. and maybe a dozen (or less) involved in any school shootings [QUOTE=Ganerumo;53142449]It's a matter of scale, to me. It's the same as, say, donating a nifty little utility knife versus donating a kukri. If you're going to donate a gun at a children's raffle wouldn't it make more sense to donate a firearm that's more to the scale of a child like something that shoots 22 ? I'm certainly not against children doing target practice since I got to do it when I was a kid and it was a blast, but there's better firearms to learn with as far as I'm concerned. Then again this is assuming a children's raffle would actually aim its prizes at children, I'm not sure most parents would be willing to win a rifle that costs at least a grand going by their website and give it to their kids. Seems like a mismanagement of funds.[/QUOTE] A bunch of gun stores where I live will donate rifles for free, it helps get them publicity by donating. And for the most part gun raffles are aimed at the parents to help support local teams (that their kids are most likely a part of)

[QUOTE=EvilMattress;53142460]And for the most part gun raffles are aimed at the parents to help support local teams (that their kids are most likely a part of)[/QUOTE] Any of these raffles are aimed at the parents. I've seen some with alcohol before. The items are for the adults to want to spend money on tickets, in an attempt to get something that's worth a lot for cheap.

[QUOTE=OvB;53142459]In my experience with these kinds of raffles, the items are rarely targeted at kids. We'd raffle off generic shit like cheese and wine baskets and free coupon booklets and what not.[/QUOTE] Eh, I guess it boils down to cultural difference. When I was younger and school raffles were a thing the stuff that was up for grabs was usually toys meant for children since that would make kids push their parents to buy more tickets and the kids would actually end up using whatever they won with a lot more free agency. This did sometimes include really weak airsoft guns by the way, although I don't think I've ever seen a straight up BB gun let alone a firearm.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;53142449]It's a matter of scale, to me. It's the same as, say, donating a nifty little utility knife versus donating a kukri. If you're going to donate a gun at a children's raffle wouldn't it make more sense to donate a firearm that's more to the scale of a child like something that shoots 22 ? I'm certainly not against children doing target practice since I got to do it when I was a kid and it was a blast, but there's better firearms to learn with as far as I'm concerned. Then again this is assuming a children's raffle would actually aim its prizes at children, I'm not sure most parents would be willing to win a rifle that costs at least a grand going by their website and give it to their kids. Seems like a mismanagement of funds.[/QUOTE] The raffle isn't targeted at kids explicitly. I don't think you're totally wrapping your head around how many people in a small Missouri town would love to give a few bucks to the local kid's baseball team along with having the chance at a $900 dollar rifle. I don't think there a ton of items that would sell MORE tickets until you get real optimistic about what would be donated, honestly.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;53142469]Eh, I guess it boils down to cultural difference. When I was younger and school raffles were a thing the stuff that was up for grabs was usually toys meant for children since that would make kids push their parents to buy more tickets and the kids would actually end up using whatever they won with a lot more free agency.[/QUOTE] It gives the parents an incentive to help out the teams

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;53142469]Eh, I guess it boils down to cultural difference. When I was younger and school raffles were a thing the stuff that was up for grabs was usually toys meant for children since that would make kids push their parents to buy more tickets and the kids would actually end up using whatever they won with a lot more free agency.[/QUOTE] Our raffles generally went straight to the source of the money: the parents. There's probably some kid things in there too but the hot ticket items were aimed at adults. Wine baskets, spa treatments, etc. These are both school raffles and non-school. In cub scouts we'd just sell popcorn.

[QUOTE=EvilMattress;53142460]I mean it's okay if you don't understand America's gun culture, it's not for everyone and that's fine, but please inform yourself properly It's misinformation like this that gives guns like the AR-15 such a bad rap, people read the headlines and associate AR-15 with mass shooting, even though there are approximately 5-10 million of them in the U.S. and maybe a dozen (or less) involved in any school shootings[/QUOTE] I could use some direction in where to find good reading material, tbh. google always turns up headlines for mass shootings (it feels like we're averaging one a week now) when trying to research this weapon & it makes it hard to not see it as something designed to kill, rather than harm. it's even been given the nickname of "weapon of choice" by some of the more sensationalized news outlets covering this, and from what i've seen, they're not too far off. it's hard to believe the idea that a .9mm does more damage than rounds off a semi-auto when there's not many, if any, headlines for "pistol used in mass shooting" this isn't a sarcastic dig, by the way. if y'all have some good places to actually research this stuff, that'd be great

What you need is first hand experience. If you happen to be in central Texas, I'd be happy to take you to a gun range and show you what it's about using guns from my collection.

[QUOTE=cebceb44;53142481]I could use some direction in where to find good reading material, tbh. google always turns up headlines for mass shootings (it feels like we're averaging one a week now) when trying to research this weapon & it makes it hard to not see it as something designed to kill, rather than harm. it's even been given the nickname of "weapon of choice" by some of the more sensationalized news outlets covering this, and from what i've seen, they're not too far off. it's hard to believe the idea that a .9mm does more damage than rounds off a semi-auto when there's not many, if any, headlines for "pistol used in mass shooting" this isn't a sarcastic dig, by the way. if y'all have some good places to actually research this stuff, that'd be great[/QUOTE] I think statistically speaking, pistols are used in the vast majority of mass shootings which typically amount to gang wars and the like.

Rifles are used in something like 1% of shootings overall, and the bulk of those are hunting guns IIRC. AR-15s and other "assault weapons" account for a very small proportion of gun crime. They make the news specifically because they are so uncommon. There was widespread doubt and confusion about the report that an AR-15 was used at Sandy Hook for that reason alone. Lately they've been used more in these types of shootings, probably due in part to the media fanfare every time it happens, but body counts are almost never attributable to the weapon itself. I would say the only example of a recent shooting where the weapon being an AR-15 made a difference was the Vegas shooting, but when you're just walking around a crowded building shooting people who can't do anything about it, it doesn't really matter what type of gun you're using to do it, or even whether or not you're using a gun at all, as some of the mass stabbings in other countries have showed us. What matters is police response time over everything.

[QUOTE=OvB;53142459]In my experience with these kinds of raffles, the items are rarely targeted at kids. We'd raffle off generic shit like cheese and wine baskets and free coupon booklets and what not.[/QUOTE] Exactly, children are not buying the tickets. It is the parents or other adults who are buying the tickets. The adults want to win the rifle. The kids just beneift from the money raised.

Former EMT student chiming in. The AR-15 is no more deadlier than other 5.56 rifles. Through and through injuries are far less deadly than a tumbling/shattering round. Assault Weapon Bans are bullshit in of themselves. [IMG]http://mini14stocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Mini-14s.jpg[/IMG] All the same gun, fire the same round, but some of them are illegal in certain states due to feel good laws passed by people who don't know what they're legislating.

[QUOTE=Boaraes;53142407]This in itself is just so inoffensive. Gun raffles have been a thing for a very long time. What is offensive is that people have the audacity to forcefully relate it to a shooting. I seriously don't understand why the AR-15 invokes responses like these. Is it because it looks scary or what? Would you rather prefer a Mini-14 or something?[/QUOTE] Because it's all black and everyone knows black guns are evil and can kill more people than other guns. </s> Seriously though, people do hate it because they think it looks scary. I bet if all ar15s had wooden furniture there wouldn't be so much blind hatred for it. [t]https://i.imgur.com/ZTzWjKF.jpg[/t]

[QUOTE=cebceb44;53142481]I could use some direction in where to find good reading material, tbh. google always turns up headlines for mass shootings (it feels like we're averaging one a week now) when trying to research this weapon & it makes it hard to not see it as something designed to kill, rather than harm. it's even been given the nickname of "weapon of choice" by some of the more sensationalized news outlets covering this, and from what i've seen, they're not too far off. it's hard to believe the idea that a .9mm does more damage than rounds off a semi-auto when there's not many, if any, headlines for "pistol used in mass shooting" this isn't a sarcastic dig, by the way. if y'all have some good places to actually research this stuff, that'd be great[/QUOTE] At least you’re trying. Honestly though there’s a bunch of bias and misinformation on both sides of the argument which makes things hard to find even among pro gun communities and forums. I’m sure Grenadiac, myself, or a few others could answer questions on any specific weapons and what they are realistically capable of doing. General rule of thumb though is politicians and news outlets generally have no clue what they are talking about... actually that applies for everything outside the topic of firearms as well :v: In any case, the FBI does a bunch of statistics on crimes committed with weapons which show that semiautomatic rifles pretty much make less than 1% of overall firearms offenses. If anything, handgun purchases need to be monitored more closely. If you’re looking for information on the AR 15, I could start with clearing up a few general misconceptions. -They are not machine guns or assault rifles because the civilian versions can only fire once per trigger pull. (There are some rare exceptions though) -Compared to bolt action/hunting rifles, the AR 15 typically uses a much smaller round like 5.56 NATO or .223 Remington. Since the rounds are smaller and rely mostly on velocity to deliver damage, the AR 15 doesn’t tend to over penetrate anywhere near the level of hunting rifles, and even less than many handgun rounds like 9mm. Since 9mm has more mass and will usually penetrate through objects further than .223, the AR 15 is actually an ideal option for home defense because people typically don’t want bullets smashing through through all of their walls and ending up hitting some random person by mistake.

If I liked AR-15s I'd probably throw $5 into this. Personally I'd prefer something like a nice, low-caliber Glock for just maybe occasional range shooting and feel-good anti-paranoia, but it's not like it was the school's idea to start raffling a gun, beggars just can't be choosers.

Not too comfortable with using kids to do it, sorry. Was fine with the bank that raffled a shotgun because it was upfront about it and obviously was an adult-to-adult transfer. I know the kids themselves aren’t selling nor receiving it but it feels off color to me. And I’m pretty goddamn pro-Gun/2A

My discomfort stems from the fact that raffling a gun reduces it to a plaything to be tossed about for fun, and doesn't teach children to respect it for the deadly weapon it is.

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;53142621]My discomfort stems from the fact that raffling a gun reduces it to a plaything to be tossed about for fun, and doesn't teach children to respect it for the deadly weapon it is.[/QUOTE] That’s a better way of putting it. Guns are fun to shoot but they aren’t toys or rewards or treats. They have the power to destroy and should be respected as such.

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;53142621]My discomfort stems from the fact that raffling a gun reduces it to a plaything to be tossed about for fun, and doesn't teach children to respect it for the deadly weapon it is.[/QUOTE] Implying that children don't have the capacity to be taught respect for it. As someone who sells guns for a living it's pretty easy to tell when someone is not familiar with firearms and someone who is, and that reflection can be seen in their children. Folks who teach their kids to respect firearms at a young age handle them safely, and at least have a rudimentary understanding of how deadly they can be. They're the ones, even with toy guns, who are careful not to point the muzzle at anyone else and keep their fingers off the trigger. I'd argue that video games do a better job of reducing guns to play things, and I'm no Jack Thompson. The kids that come in with their not gun experienced adults can name half the guns in the shop from playing COD, but they're also the ones who pick up the mock pistols I have to display sights and point them at one another making pew noises. The kind of lessons taught to children when it comes to how they perceive firearms is shaped as much by the parents, if not more so, than by any sort of media. The idea that a raffle aimed at adults devalues the seriousness of a firearm is probably one of the least of my concerns when it comes to children learning about the proper handling and respect of firearms.

[QUOTE=Toybasher;53142538]Former EMT student chiming in. The AR-15 is no more deadlier than other 5.56 rifles. Through and through injuries are far less deadly than a tumbling/shattering round. Assault Weapon Bans are bullshit in of themselves. [IMG]http://mini14stocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Mini-14s.jpg[/IMG] All the same gun, fire the same round, but some of them are illegal in certain states due to feel good laws passed by people who don't know what they're legislating.[/QUOTE] Just curious (as I am still learning about the finer details of guns), while these guns all do fire the same round and carry the same lethal potential with a single shot, doesn't some variations being magazine-fed make them easier and more efficient for shooting more rounds?

[QUOTE=Duck M.;53142656]Just curious (as I am still learning about the finer details of guns), while these guns all do fire the same round and carry the same lethal potential with a single shot, doesn't some variations being magazine-fed make them easier and more efficient for shooting more rounds?[/QUOTE] They're all magazine-fed, just some of them are depicted with either no magazine or a flush-fitting low-capacity magazine. Functionally, they're all the exact same rifle, the only differences are furniture and minor details (eg flash hiders). [editline]19th February 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=Headhumpy;53142621]My discomfort stems from the fact that raffling a gun reduces it to a plaything to be tossed about for fun, and doesn't teach children to respect it for the deadly weapon it is.[/QUOTE] How does that follow? I've seen cars raffled off but those aren't 'playthings', and you absolutely have to teach your kids to respect just how dangerous cars can be if mishandled. I don't see how it's undermining teaching children respect for firearms by selling it in a fundraising raffle. They're not selling guns to children so what's the issue?

[QUOTE=catbarf;53142662]They're all magazine-fed, just some of them are depicted with either no magazine or a flush-fitting low-capacity magazine. Functionally, they're all the exact same rifle, the only differences are furniture and minor details (eg flash hiders). [editline]19th February 2018[/editline] How does that follow? I've seen cars raffled off but those aren't 'playthings', and you absolutely have to teach your kids to respect just how dangerous cars can be if mishandled. They're not selling guns to children so what's the issue?[/QUOTE] Aaahhh that makes sense. When I was watching a video of some guy firing a ranch rifle he loaded it into the chamber in the top instead with one of those low-profile mags, which was for obvious reasons a little confusing lol. Thanks!