Muslim converts breathe new life into Europe’s struggling Christian churches - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=idiot;51993753]Your post doesn't really logically follow what I said, I didn't advocate for theocracy or claim that secularism is bad. Prior to Western secular thought being developed many of those ideas were unique solely to Christianity.[/QUOTE] Only to an extent, it wasn't really what we see today. Much of today's liberalism only occured once it began to decline. In fact in many countries that still have Christian majorities you see the exact kind of bigotry I'm talking about, even in Western nations.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51993590]The only reason we've seen such an increase in liberal ideals is because of religious decline. If you want to reverse that then by all means.[/QUOTE] Uh, no? Liberal ideals are the cause of religious decline, not the other way around, what are you talking about? Not to mention the origin of what we consider 'liberal ideals' comes from Christian philosophers. Get that edge out of here.

[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;51993835]Uh, no? Liberal ideals are the cause of religious decline, not the other way around, what are you talking about? Not to mention the origin of what we consider 'liberal ideals' comes from Christian philosophers. Get that edge out of here.[/QUOTE] Not really, most liberal ideas date back to the greeks. And no it isn't clear cut liberal ideas led to a decline in religion at all, religious people too this day are resisting them, it's only because of the decline that they've been allowed through. Most of the religious liberals were more liberal in spite of rather than because of.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51993854]Not really, most liberal ideas date back to the greeks. And no it isn't clear cut liberal ideas led to a decline in religion at all, religious people too this day are resisting them, it's only because of the decline that they've been allowed through. Most of the religious liberals were more liberal in spite of rather than because of.[/QUOTE] Religion is not the primary cause of bigotry and anti-liberal idealism. Religion is simply a scapegoat and channel for that bigotry for those who choose to use it in that manner. Likewise, Religion is a source of fulfillment for themselves and, by extension, those around them if they choose to use it in that manner. Religion is not inherently bad, people can be bad, and those people utilize a twisted and mangled vision of their religion that they themselves aren't even well educated upon as a fallback when their viewpoints are challenged.

[QUOTE=ZombieWaffle;51993871]Religion is not the primary cause of bigotry and anti-liberal idealism. Religion is simply a scapegoat and channel for that bigotry for those who choose to use it in that manner. Likewise, Religion is a source of fulfillment for themselves and, by extension, those around them if they choose to use it in that manner. Religion is not inherently bad, people can be bad, and those people utilize a twisted and mangled vision of their religion that they themselves aren't even well educated upon as a fallback when their viewpoints are challenged.[/QUOTE] No it is very much a large reason for bigotry, particularly when parents indoctrinate their children with it, and more importantly makes people feel justified about it. Without it they'd have to come up with other justifications which is a lot more difficult. Anyone who says religion isn't bad I honestly think has never actually been part of it, or had families that didn't really practice it and were religious in name only.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51993921]No it is very much a large reason for bigotry, particularly when parents indoctrinate their children with it, and more importantly makes people feel justified about it. Without it they'd have to come up with other justifications which is a lot more difficult. [B]Anyone who says religion isn't bad I honestly think has never actually been part of it, or had families that didn't really practice it and were religious in name only.[/B][/QUOTE] Except the people who disagree with you, or don't fit your picture, right? I mean that's a pretty stupid statement cause either you are saying that no-one in a religious family thinks it's a good thing, or otherwise you are saying something redundant: "People who grew up in religious households, and disagree with them, disagree with religion".

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;51993942]Except the people who disagree with you, or don't fit your picture, right? I mean that's a pretty stupid statement cause either you are saying that no-one in a religious family thinks it's a good thing, or otherwise you are saying something redundant: "People who grew up in religious households and disagree with them disagree with religion".[/QUOTE] Well obviously Christians will think Christianity is fine, but anyone with integrity would not defend an ideology that has many aspects that are diametrically opposed to their own. It would not surprise me at all to find that most of the people arguing with me, bar yourself since I know you're a Christian, have very limited experience with it.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51993960]Well obviously Christians will think Christianity is fine, but anyone with integrity would not defend an ideology that has many aspects that are diametrically opposed to their own. It would not surprise me at all to find that most of the people arguing with me, bar yourself since I know you're a Christian, have very limited experience with it.[/QUOTE] Assuming they see them is incompatible due to their [i]interpretation[/i], or are you just defining Christians as a monolith?

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;51993975]Assuming they see them is incompatible due to their [i]interpretation[/i], or are you just defining Christians as a monolith?[/QUOTE] The moral code of Christianity is written down, the vast majority of Christian denominations do not disagree on these, so for all intents and purposes with the exception of a couple of hipster churches, it can be defined as a monolith when it comes to morals. The majority of Christian disagreement is about the nature of god and salvation rather than moral disagreement.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51993989]The moral code of Christianity is written down, the vast majority of Christian denominations do not disagree on these, so for all intents and purposes with the exception of a couple of hipster churches, it can be defined as a monolith when it comes to morals. The majority of Christian disagreement is about the nature of god and salvation rather than moral disagreement.[/QUOTE] I don't think it's right to assume that Christianity itself is inherently illiberal based on it's agreement on certain stances on morality. Even allowing a monolithic assumption on the moral principle, Christianity generally agrees that you shouldn't drink and fornicate, but that doesn't mean people want mandated chastity belts and prohibition. If we discard the monolithic assumption, then not only can there be disagreement regarding the severity of any given sin, but also the proper response to it. See: The Amish.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;51994008]I don't think it's right to assume that Christianity itself is inherently illiberal based on it's agreement on certain stances on morality. Even allowing a monolithic assumption on the moral principle, Christianity generally agrees that you shouldn't drink and fornicate, but that doesn't mean people want mandated chastity belts and prohibition. If we discard the monolithic assumption, then not only can there be disagreement regarding the severity of any given sin, but also the proper response to it. See: Amish.[/QUOTE] It's a set of strict inflexible ideological beliefs that are perceived as objective and enforced through the fear of a deity, it doesn't get much more illiberal than that.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51994024]It's a set of strict inflexible ideological beliefs that are perceived as objective and enforced through the fear of a deity, it doesn't get much more illiberal than that.[/QUOTE] Or it is a set of beliefs about morality that can be thought to be defined arbitrarily, non-arbitrarily, or a combination of both, and the response to which can range from absolutism and zealotry to humble acknowledgement of all human failures and acceptance of the sinner. But then again, what do I know?

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51993921] Anyone who says religion isn't bad I honestly think has never actually been part of it, or had families that didn't really practice it and were religious in name only.[/QUOTE] I'm getting the sense that you have only a narrow view of religion solely based on your own experiences and zero knowledge of anything outside of them. Which is kind of ironic because you're condemning Christians for the same thing.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;51994563]I'm getting the sense that you have only a narrow view of religion solely based on your own experiences and zero knowledge of anything outside of them. Which is kind of ironic because you're condemning Christians for the same thing.[/QUOTE] Or I have a better understanding of the material it's based on than the people who have no experience what so ever with it.

I don't see how religion is an outlet for bigotry when almost anyone I've talked to that opposed homosexuals just went with "Because God said so" as the root reason for their bigotry and any other justification is just an extension for that belief. I'm sure bigotry of gays can still exist and could probably still be very popular opinion without religion but I wouldn't excuse religion as a factor for its continued popularity

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51993590]The only reason we've seen such an increase in liberal ideals is because of religious decline. If you want to reverse that then by all means.[/QUOTE] most liberal ideas are based in Christian theology, it's just been stripped of the religious justification and rests on an increasingly shaky philosophical bed

[QUOTE=Matrix374;51994968]I don't see how religion is an outlet for bigotry when almost anyone I've talked to that opposed homosexuals just went with "Because God said so" as the root reason for their bigotry and any other justification is just an extension for that belief. I'm sure bigotry of gays can still exist and could probably still be very popular opinion without religion but I wouldn't excuse religion as a factor for its continued popularity[/QUOTE] Just because they say it's the reason doesn't make it the reason. There's plenty of homophobes who aren't religious, and the only time homosexuality is stated as being wrong in the Bible is alongside other sexual sins like adultery. So, if you had sex before marriage, and the vast majority of people have, you become a hypocrite if you use religion as an excuse for homophobia. People still haven't got used to LGBT acceptance because it's a fairly new thing. It will change with time, but it will take more effort from the LGBT community and allies. Blaming religion fixes nothing, it is an excuse, not the cause

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;51995130]Just because they say it's the reason doesn't make it the reason. There's plenty of homophobes who aren't religious, and the only time homosexuality is stated as being wrong in the Bible is alongside other sexual sins like adultery. So, if you had sex before marriage, and the vast majority of people have, you become a hypocrite if you use religion as an excuse for homophobia. People still haven't got used to LGBT acceptance because it's a fairly new thing. It will change with time, but it will take more effort from the LGBT community and allies. Blaming religion fixes nothing, it is an excuse, not the cause[/QUOTE] Except it IS a large part of the cause, you cannot deny it's very strong influence, saying otherwise is disingenuous. I don't think it's coincidence that the countries with the least religious influence also have the more progressive attidues in that area.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51993921]No it is very much a large reason for bigotry, particularly when parents indoctrinate their children with it, and more importantly makes people feel justified about it. Without it they'd have to come up with other justifications which is a lot more difficult. Anyone who says religion isn't bad I honestly think has never actually been part of it, or had families that didn't really practice it and were religious in name only.[/QUOTE]My family are religious Syriac Orthodox Christians and they are fine with my atheism, and they also support LGBT rights. You've got a lot of generalizations in your posts. My parents do not agree with what Paul wrote because it does not align with Jesus Christ's teachings.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51994909]Or I have a better understanding of the material it's based on than the people who have no experience what so ever with it.[/QUOTE] No it's exceedingly clear that in your thinly veiled attempt to escape the religion that was pushed on you from a young age you're digging yourself into a very similar hole of ignorance and intolerance that you preach against.

[QUOTE=No Party Hats;51995419]No it's exceedingly clear that in your thinly veiled attempt to escape the religion that was pushed on you from a young age you're digging yourself into a very similar hole of ignorance and intolerance that you preach against.[/QUOTE] It's not ignorance it's a fact, you can pick up a Bible and read plenty of sections that directly promote bigotry

Making broad sweeping generalizations like you are and backing it up with 'no my family were REAL Christians I know more than you' does not an argument make.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51994909]Or I have a better understanding of the material it's based on than the people who have no experience what so ever with it.[/QUOTE] I was raised Catholic and have experience in the church and my pastor and congregation was always welcoming to basically everyone and didn't judge on a person's race or creed or sexuality or whatever. I haven't gone in years but it was big part of me not being a bigoted dick as a kid. Guess that experience is lesser than yours though.

[QUOTE=PulseFrog;51995401]My family are religious Syriac Orthodox Christians and they are fine with my atheism, and they also support LGBT rights. You've got a lot of generalizations in your posts. My parents do not agree with what Paul wrote because it does not align with Jesus Christ's teachings.[/QUOTE] Well that's a shame since the Syrian orthodox church disagrees

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51995423]It's not ignorance it's a fact, you can pick up a Bible and read plenty of sections that directly promote bigotry[/QUOTE] Yeah mate I grew up in a Christian household and attended our local congregation for 12 years I've read the Bible. You argue that the Bible isn't meant to be interpreted but followed as mantra when there's about a hundred different valid branches of faith stemming from said Bible that all teach based on unique interpretations. Fuck dude the Pope has contradicted the Bible under the justification that some things are simply not relevant in the modern era. [editline]22nd March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=carcarcargo;51995427]Well that's a shame since the Syrian orthodox church disagrees[/QUOTE] That's great because not everyone is a die hard follower of their specific sect because faith is interpreted and felt not taught [editline]22nd March 2017[/editline] In fact the way you're behaving about this contradicts many of Christ's teachings which makes it exceedingly clear that you're only making a stink about this because you've got some sort of baggage in regards to having a specific style of faith pushed on you. I understand totally, fuck I empathize I didn't choose to attend church. But you've gotta understand at the end of the day that the Bible is a collection of texts and myths from people who lived a LONG time ago with different societal values and morals. Obviously taking it literally to the dot is senseless and ass backwards, that's why there's so much variety in the Church nowadays, people learned to extrapolate things from the Bible and related stories and apply them to their own lives in a responsible way.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51995427]Well that's a shame since the [B]Syrian[/B] orthodox church disagrees[/QUOTE] Syriac Orthodox not Syrian. Anyway, maybe the church is against gays but my parents are not the church, and just because they are religious does not mean that they agree with everything the church does. People's beliefs are not black or white; each individual is different and people make their own on conclusions that differ from the church they were born into. Do you seriously believe that all people who belong to a certain religion or certain denomination follow each and every rule?

we probably chased him off but I think a very relevant piece of scripture in regards to carcarcargo comes from Matthew 6:1-6, which literally talks about the concepts of not being a braggart about giving to the needy and not being self righteous in your faith. But, when you boil it down to it's core message: Dont be a hypocrite [editline]22nd March 2017[/editline] Oh also relevant is the whole teaching of 'Have faith and that is enough'. Jesus Christ was very much about personal interpretation of the lessons of the Lord because as I said before, faith is not taught but felt

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51994909]Or I have a better understanding of the material it's based on than the people who have no experience what so ever with it.[/QUOTE] No TRUE Scotsman would think religion isn't bad!

[QUOTE=No Party Hats;51995480]we probably chased him off but I think a very relevant piece of scripture in regards to carcarcargo comes from Matthew 6:1-6, which literally talks about the concepts of not being a braggart about giving to the needy and not being self righteous in your faith. But, when you boil it down to it's core message: Dont be a hypocrite [editline]22nd March 2017[/editline] Oh also relevant is the whole teaching of 'Have faith and that is enough'. Jesus Christ was very much about personal interpretation of the lessons of the Lord because as I said before, faith is not taught but felt[/QUOTE]I agree, and although there are a lot of things that I disagree with in the Bible, I think a lot of good lessons can be learnt from the New Testament.

[QUOTE=PulseFrog;51995491]I agree, and although there are a lot of things that I disagree with in the Bible, I think a lot of good lessons can be learnt from the New Testament.[/QUOTE] Honestly even though you're not Jewish I strongly suggest giving the Talmud a read if you find the time. Though it's a commentary on the Torah, the general gist of things is obviously very similar to the Bible what with the texts stemming from the same root faith. Thousands upon thousands of rabbis throw their hat in for a theological discussion of the messages and teachings provided and it really is a stand up example of exactly how interpretive faith can be, even within the same exact church