Muslim converts breathe new life into Europe’s struggling Christian churches - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=No Party Hats;51995510]Honestly even though you're not Jewish I strongly suggest giving the Talmud a read if you find the time. Though it's a commentary on the Torah, the general gist of things is obviously very similar to the Bible what with the texts stemming from the same root faith. Thousands upon thousands of rabbis throw their hat in for a theological discussion of the messages and teachings provided and it really is a stand up example of exactly how interpretive faith can be, even within the same exact church[/QUOTE]Thanks, I have never read it, but always wanted to.

[QUOTE=PulseFrog;51995463]Syriac Orthodox not Syrian. Anyway, maybe the church is against gays but my parents are not the church, and just because they are religious does not mean that they agree with everything the church does. People's beliefs are not black or white; each individual is different and people make their own on conclusions that differ from the church they were born into. Do you seriously believe that all people who belong to a certain religion or certain denomination follow each and every rule?[/QUOTE] If your parents don't agree with it then why are they part of it

[QUOTE=PulseFrog;51995532]Thanks, I have never read it, but always wanted to.[/QUOTE] Of course, I totally get that struggle. If I may suggest a significantly more palatable read that's exceedingly relevant to the conversation though, The Inquisitor's Tale by Adam Gidwitz is an absolutely wonderful read. Technically he's a children's author, but this story specifically is about a group of 3 kids in the 1200s; a Sacaren born Monk, a Jewish boy and a Catholic peasant girl who learn to understand that it's not the strict interpretation of their faith that make them good, but their acceptance and understanding of the interpretations of faith each individual human carries. Took me about a day's read and I had no clue it was even written for younger folks until I read some interviews after the fact

[QUOTE=No Party Hats;51995480]we probably chased him off but I think a very relevant piece of scripture in regards to carcarcargo comes from Matthew 6:1-6, which literally talks about the concepts of not being a braggart about giving to the needy and not being self righteous in your faith. But, when you boil it down to it's core message: Dont be a hypocrite [editline]22nd March 2017[/editline] Oh also relevant is the whole teaching of 'Have faith and that is enough'. Jesus Christ was very much about personal interpretation of the lessons of the Lord because as I said before, faith is not taught but felt[/QUOTE] No I'm just busy, I'll finish it off when I get home

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51995557]If your parents don't agree with it then why are they part of it[/QUOTE] Because unlike your strange fantasy world where everything is cut and dry black and white, most human beings are capable of critical thinking [editline]22nd March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=carcarcargo;51995562]No I'm just busy, I'll finish it off when I get home[/QUOTE] Please try and come up with better arguments than 'well they don't follow it to the letter so they're wrong' and then diving for the no true Scotsman play whenever someone challenges you

[QUOTE=No Party Hats;51995564]Because unlike your strange fantasy world where everything is cut and dry black and white, most human beings are capable of critical thinking [editline]22nd March 2017[/editline] Please try and come up with better arguments than 'well they don't follow it to the letter so they're wrong' and then diving for the no true Scotsman play whenever someone challenges you[/QUOTE] It's not no true scotsman, if you don't agree with the founding text of christianity why call yourself a christian at all. It's like questioning why a person who wants to get rid of the state and hand it all off to the free market is calling them self a communist.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51995625]It's not no true scotsman, if you don't agree with the founding text of christianity why call yourself a christian at all. It's like questioning why a person who wants to get rid of the state and hand it all off to the free market is calling them self a communist.[/QUOTE] No because political ideology has a lot of clearly defined lines in the sand that make communism a far cry from say a democratic socialist society fundamentally. The majority of religion that's followed to this date are based on, gasp, different interpretations of a myth that was birthed in the early days of society that has branched and mutated into many particular takes on one core concept. Like it or not, Muslims Jews and Catholics all pray to the same god whos word is incredibly consistent across the board. These divisions we have had for so long exist because people of different cultural and economic backgrounds interpreted the core teachings in their own unique ways. [editline]22nd March 2017[/editline] Everything you've said so far has shown such an exaggerated lack of perspective when it comes to the development of human culture that I'm really edging on the idea that you're just flat out trolling

[QUOTE=No Party Hats;51995654]No because political ideology has a lot of clearly defined lines in the sand that make communism a far cry from say a democratic socialist society fundamentally. The majority of religion that's followed to this date are based on, gasp, different interpretations of a myth that was birthed in the early days of society that has branched and mutated into many particular takes on one core concept. Like it or not, Muslims Jews and Catholics all pray to the same god whos word is incredibly consistent across the board. These divisions we have had for so long exist because people of different cultural and economic backgrounds interpreted the core teachings in their own unique ways.[/QUOTE] The bible has a lot of clearly defined lines, it's no less clearly defined than any other political text. I mean please attempt to explain another interpretation of 1 Timothy 1:8-11, it's pretty damn clear cut and doesn't change much from translation to translation.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51995625]It's not no true scotsman, if you don't agree with the founding text of christianity why call yourself a christian at all. It's like questioning why a person who wants to get rid of the state and hand it all off to the free market is calling them self a communist.[/QUOTE] You just literally described no true scotsman duder

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;51995667]You just literally described no true scotsman duder[/QUOTE] Except it isn't at all, a person who supports free market control can't realistically call themselves a communist without bending definitions to the point that they're effectively meaningless, and the same can be applied to Christians.

Let me ask you this: am I wrong to say culturally I'm an American even though I strongly oppose many things that shape our way of life, dating back to the founding fathers?

[QUOTE=No Party Hats;51995679]Let me ask you this: am I wrong to say culturally I'm an American even though I strongly oppose many things that shape our way of life, dating back to the founding fathers?[/QUOTE] Well American is simply a nationality, it's simply a statement of where you live or where you were born, it says nothing about your political opinions. This isn't the same as a religion which is inherently ideological.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51995664]The bible has a lot of clearly defined lines, it's no less clearly defined than any other political text. I mean please attempt to explain another interpretation of 1 Timothy 1:8-11, it's pretty damn clear cut and doesn't change much from translation to translation.[/QUOTE] Mate the Epistle to Timothy is a stapled on instruction for the base rules of the church around 150AD, by referencing it you're literally proving my point about the fact that faith is built on interpretation and malleability because many of his doctrines have been totally eschewed by the Church as a whole. [editline]22nd March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=carcarcargo;51995691]Well American is simply a nationality, it's simply a statement of where you live or where you were born, it says nothing about your political opinions. This isn't the same as a religion which is inherently ideological.[/QUOTE] Okay you're absolutely trolling, you do understand that I'm talking about cultural identity here right, not where you were born?

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51995691]Well American is simply a nationality, it's simply a statement of where you live or where you were born, it says nothing about your political opinions. This isn't the same as a religion which is inherently ideological.[/QUOTE] Culture and politics may overlap, but they are by far not identical things.

[QUOTE=No Party Hats;51995701] Okay you're absolutely trolling, you do understand that I'm talking about cultural identity here right, not where you were born?[/QUOTE] What is an American's cultural identity other than living in the US? There's no set tenets, no guiding text for being an American outside of it's laws. I mean what exactly do you see a religion as if not an ideology, what separates one religion from another outside of differences in principles and views? As for Timothy, pretty much every bible book was stapled on at some point, but that's looking at it from an atheistic point of view. The vast Majority of christians still hold timothy as being canon, it's mostly only atheistic bible scholars who look at it from a historical perspective who see it as noncanon. I can always find plenty of other not so pleasant verses from the other letters and accounts if you really really want though.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51995732]What is an American's cultural identity other than living in the US? There's no set tenets, no guiding text for being an American outside of it's laws. [/QUOTE] [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_the_United_States]Dude, fucking educate yourself[/url]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51995732]What is an American's cultural identity other than living in the US? There's no set tenets, no guiding text for being an American outside of it's laws. I mean what exactly do you see a religion as if not an ideology, what separates one religion from another outside of differences in principles and views? As for Timothy, pretty much every bible book was stapled on at some point, but that's looking at it from an atheistic point of view. The vast Majority of christians still hold timothy as being canon, it's mostly only atheistic bible scholars who look at it from a historical perspective who see it as noncanon. I can always find plenty of other not so pleasant verses from the other letters and accounts if you really really want though.[/QUOTE] Go for it, I'll be able to source every single one out to an individuals interpretation of the gospel and if it's the word of Christ I'll most likely be able to show where the established modern church contradicts it. As for the rest of your post, well I really can't respond to it but if you're interested as to why you're absolutely delusional try taking high school US history or perhaps just try reading anything about the sociocultural development of our species cause I have no time for your rediculously ignorant rambling

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;51995734][URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_the_United_States"]Dude, fucking educate yourself[/URL][/QUOTE] Except even that article talks about how people from other cultures can still technically be considered American. There is no inherent doctrine ascribed to being an American, it's mostly vague social similarities. It's not the same as a group that's brought together through agreement on certain doctrine. [editline]22nd March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=No Party Hats;51995746]Go for it, I'll be able to source every single one out to an individuals interpretation of the gospel and if it's the word of Christ I'll most likely be able to show where the established modern church contradicts it. [/QUOTE] Well no shit, the bibles complete nonsense and is a load of texts loosely stitched together on the basis of perceived consistency. However this is not how Christian's see it, considering they see it as the word of god. If someone doesn't believe it is the word of god then I have to ask why they call themselves Christian at all. A religion is people who subscribe to the same set of beliefs in god, mostly on the basis on their particular religion texts in the cases of christianity and islam. If you don't agree with the text that actually establishes said religion as a thing then why on earth would you be part of that religion?

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51995760]technically [/QUOTE] I guess this really boils down to your whole time in this thread. You argue solely on technicalities and either totally refuse or just incapable of seeing the larger picture and scope of the subject.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;51995788]I guess this really boils down to your whole time in this thread. You argue solely on technicalities and either totally refuse or just incapable of seeing the larger picture and scope of the subject.[/QUOTE] Well no, because a religion isn't the same as a nationality, there is no founding doctrine for America, at least not for the individual American, there is for Christianity.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;51995130]Just because they say it's the reason doesn't make it the reason. There's plenty of homophobes who aren't religious, and the only time homosexuality is stated as being wrong in the Bible is alongside other sexual sins like adultery. So, if you had sex before marriage, and the vast majority of people have, you become a hypocrite if you use religion as an excuse for homophobia. [/QUOTE] People are hypocrites what a shocker, they take what they want from something that suits them, I don't see how differs than any other ideology. I'm sure some people who subscribe to certain ideologies don't agree with it 100% so I don't see how that's not the same with religion. I've already said in my earlier post, there are plenty of non-religious reasons for people to start hating on homosexuals and I admit that but to say that religion doesn't play a role is questionable. If you try to bring up the point of how this means that they can just drop the bigotry then give up since that's something I already agree with. All I'm saying is that religion [I]can[/I] be a huge factor in forming someone's bigotry and this is speaking from my own experience since everyone loves to bring up anecdotes. People fear god, religions brings rules from god for you to abide and you follow it as closely as possible so that they could go to heaven. A believer in god would commit his life to following those rules as closely as possible so what happens if those rules actually tell you to discriminate against homosexuals? I'm not Christian so I'm not going to speak on behalf of that but as an ex-Muslim, Islam definitely has their fair share of stories on how God hates homosexuals and we even have actual punishments set up for them. The simple relationship of the fact that someone believes in God and God's word is enough for them to form their bigotry. It's a product of them trying to follow God's word and while some people simply choose to bring a higher importance to the better values of religion. There are still plenty who would choose to follow on the homophobia since ignoring shit or twisting the things in religion is a big no-no in religion.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51995760]Except even that article talks about how people from other cultures can still technically be considered American. There is no inherent doctrine ascribed to being an American, it's mostly vague social similarities. It's not the same as a group that's brought together through agreement on certain doctrine.[/QUOTE] even though America isn't really a nation, I'm not sure how this applies to religion

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51995760] Well no shit, the bibles complete nonsense and is a load of texts loosely stitched together on the basis of perceived consistency. However this is not how Christian's see it, considering they see it as the word of god. If someone doesn't believe it is the word of god then I have to ask why they call themselves Christian at all. A religion is people who subscribe to the same set of beliefs in god, mostly on the basis on their particular religion texts in the cases of christianity and islam. If you don't agree with the text that actually establishes said religion as a thing then why on earth would you be part of that religion?[/QUOTE] You do realize the bible has a passage saying to test everything, including itself, and to hold on to that which is good. It literally invites criticism and interpretation. [url=http://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/5-21.htm]"But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;"[/url] Or in another translation "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." There are hundreds of sects of Christianity, so implying there is one Christian view is bull. You are not the arbiter of Christianity. Some only consider Christ's words, some believe in the entirety of the bible as literal. Some believe in the entirety, but as metaphors. Some consider the NT only. I know of several different interpretations of the Lord's Supper, and what it symbolizes. Whether it is literally Christ's body and blood, or merely representative, or transubstantiation. You sound like someone that explored one sect and decided it was the definitive view of Christianity.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51995800]Well no, because a religion isn't the same as a nationality, there is no founding doctrine for America, at least not for the individual American, there is for Christianity.[/QUOTE] Says someone who has likely never stepped foot in any kind of Church. There's a big reason why the various Christian sects haven't got along too well in the past. Other than Jesus being God, they are a vast amount of disagreement points throughout the various forms of Christianity.

[QUOTE=matt000024;51996173]Says someone who has likely never stepped foot in any kind of Church. There's a big reason why the various Christian sects haven't got along too well in the past. Other than Jesus being God, they are a vast amount of disagreement points throughout the various forms of Christianity.[/QUOTE] I literally mentioned earlier in the thread I was christian for years.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51996188]I literally mentioned earlier in the thread I was christian for years.[/QUOTE] Then why do you lack any understanding in Christianity?

[QUOTE=Cliff2;51996053]You do realize the bible has a passage saying to test everything, including itself, and to hold on to that which is good. It literally invites criticism and interpretation. [url=http://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/5-21.htm]"But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;"[/url] Or in another translation "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." There are hundreds of sects of Christianity, so implying there is one Christian view is bull. You are not the arbiter of Christianity. Some only consider Christ's words, some believe in the entirety of the bible as literal. Some believe in the entirety, but as metaphors. Some consider the NT only. I know of several different interpretations of the Lord's Supper, and what it symbolizes. Whether it is literally Christ's body and blood, or merely representative, or transubstantiation. You sound like someone that explored one sect and decided it was the definitive view of Christianity.[/QUOTE] That verse is specifically talking about prophecies, warning about false prophets. It isn't an all clear to be gay. [editline]22nd March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=matt000024;51996194]Then why do you lack any understanding in Christianity?[/QUOTE] Because I do understand it, nothing I've said is wrong.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51996196]That verse is specifically talking about prophecies, warning about false prophets. It isn't an all clear to be gay.[/QUOTE] The bible is prophecy. It is the words of prophets. Prophecy isn't simply prediction, it is the word of god as communicated by prophets.

Isn't islam really, really harsh on apostasy? Like, if you're a jew walking through Islamic-state town with a star of david sweater, you're better off than a known apostate in Manchester. If you leave islam, many muslims that consider themselves moderate will want your head. It's death in Sharia. It's the biggest fuckup you can make.

[QUOTE=Cliff2;51996225]The bible is prophecy. It is the words of prophets. Prophecy isn't simply prediction, it is the word of god as communicated by prophets.[/QUOTE] Again, it still isn't free reign to pick and choose what parts of the bible you like and don't. Much of the bible is stated fairly clearly with very little way of interpreting it. If you disagree with that then quite honestly why call yourself Christian if you feel you can't even trust the founding documents of it.