Canadian baby 'first without gender designation' on health card - Sensationalist Headlines

That poor kid, how is anyone expected to grow up normally with parents like this

[QUOTE=1239the;52430232]to all the people inevitably freaking out about hburr durr bad for medical reasons biology: the identifier is literally meant to be changed later once the child is comfortable with their gender identity. if they're cis, then it'll be changed to reflect that.[/QUOTE] You're stripping the kid of one of the most fundamental and foundational facets of their identities, when they most need those basic low resolution cornerstones to ultimately build their identity as an individual. And to grow up "without outside" influences is impossible, and it's incredibly damaging to try. Outside influences exist for a reason, it's because the only things that survive long periods of time is that which reasonably functions within the real world. And to reject them for it's own sake is as asinine as it is fantastically arrogant. This kid is fucked, if he turns out normal it will be an absolute miracle. And in no part due to the 'help' of the parents, either. [QUOTE=Gmod4ever;52430562] [t]http://i.imgur.com/mlKcMbZ.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] I'm sure there's some context for why the kid's wearing them, but the image of earmuffs on the kid in public is just too perfect a symbol for what they're doing to him

This is worse than the parents who ask their infants permission to pick them up and hold them.

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;52430571]You're stripping the kid of one of the most fundamental and foundational facets of their identities, when they most need those basic low resolution cornerstones to ultimately build their identity as an individual. And to grow up "without outside" influences is impossible, and it's incredibly damaging to try. Outside influences exist for a reason, it's because the only things that survive long periods of time is that which reasonably functions within the real world. And to reject them for it's own sake is as asinine as it is fantastically arrogant. This kid is fucked, if he turns out normal it will be an absolute miracle. And in no part due to the 'help' of the parents, either.[/QUOTE] As said earlier sex is pretty important to designate in cases of medical necessity, but I think gender being "one of the most fundamental facets of their identities" is something that's subjective and arguable. But to be entirely honest, despite being regularly engaged in this topic I'm STILL confused when it comes to gender identity and such. I'm firmly against reinforcing traditional gender roles in a way that excludes, but what is gender without gender roles? The way I see it, sex is physiological characteristics assigned at birth, while gender is necessitated by societal views on gender identity, but if progressives are firmly against gender roles to begin with, then why arent girls who like boy things just that, and not a further denomination? I think where the confusion stems from for me, personally, is that the term "transgender" is somewhat misleading and confusing in that it deals with both gender [I]and[/I] sex? Sort of? I feel as if it has mostly to do with the phenomenon of gender dysphoria. But what's the point of things like being nonbinary or genderfluid? Is that a firm acknowledgement of gender roles, while making the statement that it's okay to defy them, as an alternative approach to trying to defy the gender roles themselves? Is it just for self-confidence and comfort reasons? Gender is such a confusing concept :huh:

I think messing with birth certificates is soo petty and is definitely going too far. Why was this allowed?

Can someone tell me the difference between gender and sex? In Swedish we have one word ('kön') for both so I am legitimately confused. Is it meant to separate between biological (born with a penis) and mental (identifies as a woman) factors?

How to get your kid bullied for life 101

[QUOTE=Viper123_SWE;52430630]Can someone tell me the difference between gender and sex? In Swedish we have one word ('kön') for both so I am legitimately confused. Is it meant to separate between biological (born with a penis) and mental (identifies as a woman) factors?[/QUOTE] Sex is biological - you're either a boy or girl. Gender is a social construct.

Put the kid up for adoption so it has a chance at a normal life please

[QUOTE=1239the;52430232]to all the people inevitably freaking out about hburr durr bad for medical reasons biology: the identifier is literally meant to be changed later once the child is comfortable with their gender identity. if they're cis, then it'll be changed to reflect that.[/QUOTE] gender =/= sex Sex is, like others said. biological. The medical field doesn't have one way to do everything for both Male/Female sex. The kid can grow up and choose their gender identity, but you have to tell your doctor what your sex is so they can treat you properly and correctly.

Poor kid. Get ready to be bullied, and probably will grow up hating his/her parents. As others said already, it's potentially dangerous not giving the sex of the child in medical situations. Hell, I'm ftm trans and it's something you'll just have to deal with and tell when it is necessary. To me being born female made me realise how I'm not female and what the differences are by experiencing it. So I'm wondering how that will go when you don't know if you're female or male. I also see a bit of irony (if that's the correct word) in this case, but maybe I'm overthinking it: The mark they leave unassigned is for sex, not gender, while they're trying to keep it unassigned because of gender identity. Does that mean the parents think sex = gender?

[QUOTE=Gmod4ever;52430562]For some reason, the images didn't expire for me. I reuploaded them to imgur, for everyone to... enjoy. :pudge: [t]http://i.imgur.com/mlKcMbZ.jpg[/t] [t]http://i.imgur.com/QbRZZvK.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] This is probably really inappropriate and I'm gonna sound like a dick. She certainly looks like the kind of person who'd be this fucking insane. Also, how has nobody made a Conchita Wurst joke yet?

[QUOTE=Viper123_SWE;52430630]Can someone tell me the difference between gender and sex? In Swedish we have one word ('kön') for both so I am legitimately confused. Is it meant to separate between biological (born with a penis) and mental (identifies as a woman) factors?[/QUOTE] Here is a (maybe?) helpful chart I once stumbled upon that should (possibly?) clarify the difference between the various sub-items of the gendersexstuff-thingamajings. [img]http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/genderbread-person-3.png[/img] Do note that this is v3.2, so I'm not sure if this is most recent version of the Genderbread Person. Maybe they have a GitHub repo somewhere 🤔

[quote]The family's lawyer, barbara findlay, who chooses to spell her name without capital letters[/quote] finally, the hero we need, standing up to the oppression of capital letters! they stand so tall and have looked down on the other letters from their unjustly heightened positions for too long you think wealth inequality and classism is bad? the true injustice starts right on the page with words, once born so free, now shackled to the tyranny of the few truly this woman is a hero of the common letter, dragging her initials down to act as regular letters

[QUOTE=Gmod4ever;52430562]For some reason, the images didn't expire for me. I reuploaded them to imgur, for everyone to... enjoy. :pudge: [t]http://i.imgur.com/mlKcMbZ.jpg[/t] [t]http://i.imgur.com/QbRZZvK.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] I honestly thought that was the baby's dad at first when first seeing those pictures without much context. I'm still not convinced really if that is actually the mom or not. Are there even pictures of the father then? A Canadian needs to explain to me why Canadian women apparently look like that and why they can have their gender on their ID's as ''UNKNOWN'' as well. Did Canada suddenly become a Monty Python sketch or something like that?

[QUOTE=The golden;52431073]Can we not judge people based entirely on their appearance? That would be grand.[/QUOTE] In the case of clowns I disagree.

[QUOTE=Jordax;52431081] A Canadian needs to explain to me why Canadian women apparently look like that and why they can have their gender on their ID's as ''UNKNOWN'' as well. Did Canada suddenly become a Monty Python sketch or something like that?[/QUOTE] That is the sex, not the gender. Though it still doesn't make any sense.

Poor kid. I think in situations like these doctors should tell the parents to fuck off. It's like parents wanting to name their kids Hitler and stuff, it's like all they want to do is get the kid bullied and fuck them up mentally.

[QUOTE=The golden;52431109]Letting the kid grow up to decide their own gender identity is going to fuck them up? How? Please explain in a way that isn't just "Because it makes me feel uncomfortable." Because I sure as shit would have loved to been raised like this. You know what [B]DID [/B]fuck me up? Being raised as a person that I wasn't. Being forced into a body that I don't want. THAT fucked me up and I'm still struggling with the aftermath today and probably will for quite some time. To all the people shitting on this: Try to put yourself in the shoes of someone who was forced to live with a body they can't stand. Imagine your parent(s) forcing you to be someone that you're not and having to live everyday as a lie. Imagine wanting to cry or even outright kill yourself every time you look in the mirror. This parent is giving their child the ability to choose who he/she wants to be in the future. An incredible choice many of us were never given. I have incredible respect for that.[/QUOTE] There's a difference between just telling a kid what they are and forcing someone to act a certain way. If you seriously think that a kid never being told what sex they are or taught basic social conduct for men/women then the kid is going to get bullied to absolute hell when it goes to public school. You can let someone be trans or whatever but this isn't the way to go about it.

[QUOTE=The golden;52431084]Your amazing display of transphobia has been noted. Thanks for being such a nice person. I'd love to know what great injustice this person did to you that warrants you mistreating them and insulting them.[/QUOTE] I was joking about literal clowns... like the jesters with the big shoes and the facepaint and the honking of the bikehorns.

[QUOTE=The golden;52431152]Secondly: The child is most likely intersex. Meaning that it's not exactly easy to determine their biological sex sometimes.[/QUOTE] How is that possible? Babies are either born with or without a penis.

[QUOTE=GabrielWB;52431071]Here is a (maybe?) helpful chart I once stumbled upon that should (possibly?) clarify the difference between the various sub-items of the gendersexstuff-thingamajings. [img]http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/genderbread-person-3.png[/img] Do note that this is v3.2, so I'm not sure if this is most recent version of the Genderbread Person. Maybe they have a GitHub repo somewhere 🤔[/QUOTE] [URL="http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2015/03/the-genderbread-person-v3/"]Here's v3.3[/URL], which has some added explanations and examples.

[QUOTE=GabrielWB;52431071]Maybe they have a GitHub repo somewhere 🤔[/QUOTE] Will it crumble if you fork it?

[QUOTE=The golden;52431168][URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex[/URL] Can explain it better than I can. It's very real and very possible. Sex and gender are not simple black&white things and are quite varied and fluid. It's wise to never make such assumptions.[/QUOTE] Are genetic mutations really that common place?

[QUOTE=Gmod4ever;52430562]For some reason, the images didn't expire for me. I reuploaded them to imgur, for everyone to... enjoy. :pudge: -snip-[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Jordax;52431081]I honestly thought that was the baby's dad at first when first seeing those pictures without much context. I'm still not convinced really if that is actually the mom or not. Are there even pictures of the father then? A Canadian needs to explain to me why Canadian women apparently look like that and why they can have their gender on their ID's as ''UNKNOWN'' as well. Did Canada suddenly become a Monty Python sketch or something like that?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;52431053]This is probably really inappropriate and I'm gonna sound like a dick. She certainly looks like the kind of person who'd be this fucking insane. Also, how has nobody made a Conchita Wurst joke yet?[/QUOTE] this is mad rude and super inappropriate, you know! My partner is non-binary and basically doesn't look too far off from that physically. non-binary people are just as trans as typical trans people and should be treated like any other trans person would be. don't be a transphobe folks! [QUOTE=KingofBeast;52430383]Regardless of anybody's views on the gender vs sex argument, gender isn't even on birth certificates. This woman wants to omit the sex from it, which is just.. idk.[/QUOTE] agreed. if the trans community wants to be further integrated into mainstream society, the idea that there is a difference between sex and gender needs to spread. And right here is where this non-binary parent kinda fucks up. An infant should only be listed as intersex if they are legitimately intersex; not through the parent's reasoning below: [quote]The parent gave birth to Searyl Atli in November at a friend's home in British Columbia. Kori Doty, who prefers to use the pronoun they, argues that a visual inspection at birth is unable to determine what gender that person will have or identify with later in life.[/quote] It certainly does fail to determine that. By extension, if you want to forward your own ideological goals (that is to see the gradual break down of the rigidity of gender roles and their links to biological sex) then [I]you should not conflate the two yourself[/I]. An infant doesn't have a gender. It hasn't experienced any of society beyond the noises it hears in the womb; gender identity won't come about for a few years. The assumption that a potentially non-binary gendered child needs to be listed as unidentified sexually is one that is predicated upon a linking of genitals to gender. The mere existence of trans people proves that gender does not need to be linked to genitals. Some trans people get bottom surgery. Some trans people don't. So assuming that because your child might be non-binary that you should list them as unidentified is simply further perpetuating the rigid links that are the current major barrier to the trans community.

[QUOTE]Parent Kori Doty, a community educator who is part of the Gender-Free ID Coalition[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Searyl Atli[/QUOTE] Anyone else getting munchausen by proxy vibes from this? It wouldn't surprise me one bit if she makes headlines again for beating the shit out of her child for playing with dinosaurs and and monster trucks for too long. [QUOTE]The family's lawyer, barbara findlay, who chooses to spell her name without capital letters[/QUOTE] :pudge: Almost everyone involved in this case seems like as if they've only recently discovered that they can legally change their names and went hog wild with it for the sake of getting their five minutes of fame.

[QUOTE=GabrielWB;52431071]Here is a (maybe?) helpful chart I once stumbled upon that should (possibly?) clarify the difference between the various sub-items of the gendersexstuff-thingamajings. [img]http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/genderbread-person-3.png[/img] Do note that this is v3.2, so I'm not sure if this is most recent version of the Genderbread Person. Maybe they have a GitHub repo somewhere 樂[/QUOTE] Holy fuck I'm stupid. I was reading the last parentheses after femininity as an L and was wondering what the hell femeninityl is.

[QUOTE=Aphtonites;52431202]Anyone else getting munchausen by proxy vibes from this? It wouldn't surprise me one bit if she makes headlines again for beating the shit out of her child for playing with dinosaurs and and monster trucks for too long. :pudge: Almost everyone involved in this case seems like as if they've just discovered that they can legally change their names and went hog wild with it for the sake of getting five minutes of fame.[/QUOTE] Ceril as a name has been used for both males/females (and by extension historically boys/girls), which is probably why they picked it, so if their child turns out to be trans then they can still feel comfortable with their own name. Which is kind of a big deal for a trans kid, so.

I really don't agree with what they've done here, gender sure I don't exactly care about them putting U for unknown on that, but sex is biological, there is no changing what that is unless its later discovered the person is actually intersex (which has happened in a few cases where a person was identified as male sex but later a genetic test showed they were a crossover). Sex is medical, it should never be listed as unknown as it makes a doctors job vastly harder, imagine having to check a persons gentiles to be sure what doses of medication to give them as both male and females process drugs differently, its just stupid and awkward for everyone.

[QUOTE=BrickInHead;52431210]Ceril as a name has been used for both males/females (and by extension historically boys/girls), which is probably why they picked it, so if their child turns out to be trans then they can still feel comfortable with their own name. Which is kind of a big deal for a trans kid, so.[/QUOTE] Then why didn't they just pick Ceril instead of a corny new-age spelling that's going to get them picked on at school? The mother seems to really be fetishizing the whole non-binary thing.