Canadian baby 'first without gender designation' on health card - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;52431053]Also, how has nobody made a Conchita Wurst joke yet?[/QUOTE] Son of a bitch :v: Couldn't stop laughing like a moron for 5 minutes after reading that. Edit: I sadly know of a kind of similar situation where it's more the parents trying to push their kids into this way of thinking instead of allowing them to form their own thoughts on their identity. It's fucking disgusting honestly.

[QUOTE=The golden;52431073]Can we not judge people based entirely on their appearance? That would be grand.[/QUOTE] physiognomy is real

[quote]"I'm raising Searyl in in such a way that until they have the sense of self and command of vocabulary to tell me who they are, I'm recognising them as a baby and trying to give them all the love and support to be the most whole person that they can be outside of the restrictions that come with the boy box and the girl box," the parent was quoted by CBC as saying.[/quote] Or you could give him/her a normal childhood, of which many would probably kill for, instead of making him/her the pretentious brat who will either rebel against you for shit like this, or embrace your choices and become someone who thinks they're a cut from a different cloth.

[QUOTE=The golden;52431073]Can we not judge people based entirely on their appearance? That would be grand.[/QUOTE] love how threads about trans people doing anything brings the writhing transphobia and hatred of anything non-binary in FP out into the open. transman gives birth? haha that's gross. trans person doesn't look like the gender they identify as? self-righteous refusals to use their pronouns abound. child is non-binary? impossible, there are only two genders and I refuse to read anything to the contrary. what do you want? 1000 genders? 10000000 genders?? parents choose not to force gender roles on a child prematurely? they must be awful terrible parents someone call child protection services.

[QUOTE=TheCreeper;52432625]You guys just don't understand, it's a good thing for children to be brought up in a gender neutral environment because of the patriarchy. It wants to fit these children into gender assigned roles and prevent them from becoming who they want to be, especially females which is sexist and oppressive. [/QUOTE] this but unironically

[QUOTE=1239the;52432968]parents choose not to force gender roles on a child prematurely? they must be awful terrible parents someone call child protection services.[/QUOTE] this whole thing stinks of bullshit. don't you recognise that by "not forcing gender roles" you are actually creating and forcing an artificial environment (based off what you think a "non-forced gender role" is) for the child and are raising them according to methods which you (or some intellectual-yet-idiot) thinks to be a non-gender environment? and what then even if they are trans? i imagine it's pretty obvious to the child that they'll know what gender they are without having to go through the farce of a "genderless upbringing"

My issue is less that the parent is choosing to adopt a more gender neutral process of raising the kid and more the medical issues that can arise with a doctor having to do more than should be necessary to determine the sex of the child in the case that they require medical attention for whatever reason. First thing is fine. Second is obviously unnecessary.

[QUOTE=1239the;52432968] child is non-binary? impossible, there are only two genders and I refuse to read anything to the contrary.[/QUOTE] I couldn't agree more with you brother/sister, it couldn't be more obvious that they have some level of internalized transphobia and/or misogyny and it's always something that surfaces in these kinds of threads. They just don't want to believe that binary genders is something that is only in the mind and non-binary genders can and do exist which is evident by the social research done by a number of tumblrist's (for the less educated, tumblrists are tumblr blogs). There are 77 genders (possibly even millions), just accept it. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Ironic shitposting is still shitposting." - Pascall))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Duck M.;52433005]this but unironically[/QUOTE] No The number of people this helps versus does nothing for is so stupidly small that no, it's not something we should be doing as much as I support trans people. Not agreeing with this doesn't make people transphobic. That word is being thrown around far too much.

[QUOTE=Pascall;52433039]My issue is less that the parent is choosing to adopt a more gender neutral process of raising the kid and more the medical issues that can arise with a doctor having to do more than should be necessary to determine the sex of the child in the case that they require medical attention for whatever reason. First thing is fine. Second is obviously unnecessary.[/QUOTE] Sure, and I would actually agree with you - but I find it a bit of a leap that listing someone's sex as "undetermined" or whatever is going to mean that paramedics are going to be at a total loss as to what to do if they come across this person in an accident, or that the parents are going to scream "DID YOU JUST ASSUME MY CHILD'S GENDER" at every doctor they visit. The default response to anything like this from FP seems to be an instant resort to projecting all kinds of insane shit on the people. "Oh they must be massive SJWs, I bet they're going to have a mental breakdown the moment someone misgenders them!!" It's fucking dumb.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52433049]No The number of people this helps versus does nothing for is so stupidly small that no, it's not something we should be doing as much as I support trans people. Not agreeing with this doesn't make people transphobic. That word is being thrown around far too much.[/QUOTE] What are you responding to that you think I support? Why should certain arbitrary gender roles be placed on kids when it can prevent them from doing things they may enjoy? If we let gender roles dictate the path for our childrens development girls wouldnt be able to play baseball or football, boys wouldnt be able to dance, sing, cook, or wear pink, and girls wouldnt be able to go into certain fields like engineering, computer science, and other STEM fields where there's a dominant male bias.

[QUOTE=1239the;52433061]Sure, and I would actually agree with you - but I find it a bit of a leap that listing someone's sex as "undetermined" or whatever is going to mean that paramedics are going to be at a total loss as to what to do if they come across this person in an accident, or that the parents are going to scream "DID YOU JUST ASSUME MY CHILD'S GENDER" at every doctor they visit. The default response to anything like this from FP seems to be an instant resort to projecting all kinds of insane shit on the people. "Oh they must be massive SJWs, I bet they're going to have a mental breakdown the moment someone misgenders them!!" It's fucking dumb.[/QUOTE] Funny because you're projecting the assumption that everyone who disagrees with this is transphobic.

[QUOTE=1239the;52433061]Sure, and I would actually agree with you - but I find it a bit of a leap that listing someone's sex as "undetermined" or whatever is going to mean that paramedics are going to be at a total loss as to what to do if they come across this person in an accident, or that the parents are going to scream "DID YOU JUST ASSUME MY CHILD'S GENDER" at every doctor they visit. The default response to anything like this from FP seems to be an instant resort to projecting all kinds of insane shit on the people. "Oh they must be massive SJWs, I bet they're going to have a mental breakdown the moment someone misgenders them!!" It's fucking dumb.[/QUOTE] I have no idea what type of people these people are. These actions and seeking publicity however lead me to believe this person is using their child as a conversation piece, as a story, as something other than a child. The doctors/paramedics need as little confusion as possible to do their jobs. Sure, it's probably not going to throw them off, but it very well could, and then they're liable. Sex is something determined at birth, gender is a personal concept. The sex should legally be displayed. The gender isn't as important as that for a child who hasn't even gotten the concept of self down yet.

[QUOTE=1239the;52433061]Sure, and I would actually agree with you - but I find it a bit of a leap that listing someone's sex as "undetermined" or whatever is going to mean that paramedics are going to be at a total loss as to what to do if they come across this person in an accident, or that the parents are going to scream "DID YOU JUST ASSUME MY CHILD'S GENDER" at every doctor they visit. The default response to anything like this from FP seems to be an instant resort to projecting all kinds of insane shit on the people. "Oh they must be massive SJWs, I bet they're going to have a mental breakdown the moment someone misgenders them!!" It's fucking dumb.[/QUOTE] I agree, there's little to indicate anything about the person in the article other than that they don't want sex listed on records (which is obviously misguided and harmful, I won't argue against that). People on FP and otherwise seem heavily reactionary when it comes to issues of gender and sex, there's been so many exaggerated strawmen erected in the image of transfolk and progressives that people are quick to project, assume and make tired jokes about millions of genders, attack helicopters, trigger warnings, and safe spaces.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;52433074]What are you responding to that you think I support? Why should certain arbitrary gender roles be placed on kids when it can prevent them from doing things they may enjoy? If we let gender roles dictate the path for our childrens development girls wouldnt be able to play baseball or football, boys wouldnt be able to dance, sing, cook, or wear pink, and girls wouldnt be able to go into certain fields like engineering, computer science, and other STEM fields where there's a dominant male bias.[/QUOTE] So gender roles that exist now, are set and locked and we can't change them? Why does a women need to identify as anything other than a woman to be involved in any of those things? We don't need "Gender roles" like the strawman you're presenting. You seem to be living in a world of false dichotomies on this issue.

[QUOTE=1239the;52433061]Sure, and I would actually agree with you - [B]but I find it a bit of a leap that listing someone's sex as "undetermined" or whatever is going to mean that paramedics are going to be at a total loss as to what to do if they come across this person in an accident, or that the parents are going to scream "DID YOU JUST ASSUME MY CHILD'S GENDER" at every doctor they visit.[/B] The default response to anything like this from FP seems to be an instant resort to projecting all kinds of insane shit on the people. "Oh they must be massive SJWs, I bet they're going to have a mental breakdown the moment someone misgenders them!!" It's fucking dumb.[/QUOTE] It's less this and more the fact that it's going to be a bit awkward at the doctor when the kid is old enough to at least process that the doctor is probably going to want to look at what they have as far as genitalia goes when the parent refuses to acknowledge the biological sex of their child. Which is, again, an awkward encounter that's better to be avoided by just giving a straight answer. It just saves time and saves the kid some embarrassment. Not to mention the moderate confusion that may come with school bathroom breaks and things like that. Either way, this parent is conflating gender and sex in the very way which we shouldn't be doing if we want to continue making advancements to alleviate the confusion surrounding trans individuals.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;52433074]What are you responding to that you think I support? Why should certain arbitrary gender roles be placed on kids when it can prevent them from doing things they may enjoy? If we let gender roles dictate the path for our childrens development girls wouldnt be able to play baseball or football, boys wouldnt be able to dance, sing, cook, or wear pink, and girls wouldnt be able to go into certain fields like engineering, computer science, and other STEM fields where there's a dominant male bias.[/QUOTE] fyi arbitrary gender roles don't prevent them from doing things they enjoy. there have been loads and loads of girls who liked playing basketball and football, and loads of boys who sing, dance, cook, etc to what extent do these roles actually impede these? have you ever met significant numbers of people in real life who said "i really love to cook food, but its seen as a girly thing so i won't do it"?

[QUOTE=Duck M.;52433083]I agree, there's little to indicate anything about the person in the article other than that they don't want sex listed on records (which is obviously misguided and harmful, I won't argue against that). People on FP and otherwise seem heavily reactionary when it comes to issues of gender and sex, there's been so many exaggerated strawmen erected in the image of transfolk and progressives that people are quick to project, assume and make tired jokes about millions of genders, attack helicopters, trigger warnings, and safe spaces.[/QUOTE] I support trans people. The fact that even having the gall to have my own thoughts on these issues, that anyone would dare have their own thoughts on these issues, gets people like yourself into a tizzy. Yes, there are people who make a mockery of things they don't understand. But there have been people, and posts in this thread that were reasonable and argumentative towards the correct points and they're still getting your salt thrown at them like they were vile people. It's literally "My way or the highway" in these discussions it would seem, even when people give ground where it's due.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52433084]So gender roles that exist now, are set and locked and we can't change them? Why does a women need to identify as anything other than a woman to be involved in any of those things? We don't need "Gender roles" like the strawman you're presenting. You seem to be living in a world of false dichotomies on this issue.[/QUOTE] Gender roles do exist but my aim for my kids is to make it so that they're not confined to them. Gender roles can change but they are powerful forces in our society and adhering to them, while the path of least resistance, keeps kids from doing what they may well love. I don't know if you read my first post on page 1 on this issue where I expressed numerous queries about this issue, but I don't think that anyone needs to identify as anything else. I think that being nonbinary, non-conforming in regards to gender, genderfluid, or identifying as your original gender and merely participating in the gender roles of the opposite gender are all just different approaches to the same problem. Gender is, of course, a social construct. The way I see it, if these labels help people describe themselves and help them be more comfortable with who they are, who am I to judge? [editline]4th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;52433088]fyi arbitrary gender roles don't prevent them from doing things they enjoy. there have been loads and loads of girls who liked playing basketball and football, and loads of boys who sing, dance, cook, etc to what extent do these roles actually impede these? have you ever met significant numbers of people in real life who said "i really love to cook food, but its seen as a girly thing so i won't do it"?[/QUOTE] Not particularly, but that's besides the point. These roles are an invisible hand of influence that guide people towards and away from occupations and hobbies that are present throughout ones life. They aren't always so explicit, but they can be. It's no secret that girls frequently feel unwelcome or excluded from STEM fields, and that's because of societal notions that are tied to gender-roles, and I have met people in real life that have expressed that discomfort.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;52433096]Gender roles do exist but my aim for my kids is to make it so that they're not confined to them. Gender roles can change but they are powerful forces in our society and adhering to them, while the path of least resistance, keeps kids from doing what they may well love. I don't know if you read my first post on page 1 on this issue where I expressed numerous queries about this issue, but I don't think that anyone needs to identify as anything else. I think that being nonbinary, non-conforming in regards to gender, genderfluid, or identifying as your original gender and merely participating in the gender roles of the opposite gender are all just different approaches to the same problem. Gender is, of course, a social construct. The way I see it, if these labels help people describe themselves and help them be more comfortable with who they are, who am I to judge? [editline]4th July 2017[/editline] Not particularly, but that's besides the point. These roles are an invisible hand of influence that guide people towards and away from occupations and hobbies that are present throughout ones life. They aren't always so explicit, but they can be. It's no secret that girls frequently feel unwelcome or excluded from STEM fields, and that's because of societal notions that are tied to gender-roles, and I have met people in real life that have expressed that discomfort.[/QUOTE] There's a difference between not enforcing gender roles and denying your child's gender.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;52433096]Gender roles do exist but my aim for my kids is to make it so that they're not confined to them. Gender roles can change but they are powerful forces in our society and adhering to them, while the path of least resistance, keeps kids from doing what they may well love. I don't know if you read my first post on page 1 on this issue where I expressed numerous queries about this issue, but I don't think that anyone needs to identify as anything else. I think that being nonbinary, non-conforming in regards to gender, genderfluid, or identifying as your original gender and merely participating in the gender roles of the opposite gender are all just different approaches to the same problem. Gender is, of course, a social construct. The way I see it, if these labels help people describe themselves and help them be more comfortable with who they are, who am I to judge?[/QUOTE] So what does that even mean? I'm not going to force feed my kids one thing or the other, they're free to do whatever they want to figure out who they are, but I'm not going to say "Oh I'm not going to enforce strict gender roles on my child" because that doesn't really sound like it means anything. Am I going to call my child who has a penis a boy? Yes, because that's what he is until he tells me otherwise because that's how sex works. Why is that even contentious? Why remove that from the upbringing of a child for the .4% of kids who may benefit from that?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52433092]I support trans people. The fact that even having the gall to have my own thoughts on these issues, that anyone would dare have their own thoughts on these issues, gets people like yourself into a tizzy. Yes, there are people who make a mockery of things they don't understand. But there have been people, and posts in this thread that were reasonable and argumentative towards the correct points and they're still getting your salt thrown at them like they were vile people. It's literally "My way or the highway" in these discussions it would seem, even when people give ground where it's due.[/QUOTE] I feel like you're projecting again. I really don't give a shit that you "have the gall to have my own thoughts on these issues" (and come on, this is such a self-righteous thing to say here). I don't see why you think I'm personally attacking you on this issue when in reality you're one of the more mature people when it comes to these arguments and I have little issue with the way you post. [editline]4th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=geel9;52433104]There's a difference between not enforcing gender roles and denying your child's gender.[/QUOTE] What really is the difference between those two when there is no gender without gender roles? [editline]4th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52433107]So what does that even mean? I'm not going to force feed my kids one thing or the other, they're free to do whatever they want to figure out who they are, but I'm not going to say "Oh I'm not going to enforce strict gender roles on my child" because that doesn't really sound like it means anything. Am I going to call my child who has a penis a boy? Yes, because that's what he is until he tells me otherwise because that's how sex works. Why is that even contentious? Why remove that from the upbringing of a child for the .4% of kids who may benefit from that?[/QUOTE] See, I don't see any difference between "not force feeding my kids one thing or the other" and "not enforcing strict gender roles on my child". Perhaps I'm naive and misguided but those seem like rewordings of one or another. That's as far as I go on this issue personally. I don't care if people call their kids the pronouns that correspond to their sex because that's a common sense measure that I would do myself. Where I draw the line is making my kid wear blue and play football because that's what a young man should do.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;52433108]I feel like you're projecting again. I really don't give a shit that you "have the gall to have my own thoughts on these issues" (and come on, this is such a self-righteous thing to say here). I don't see why you think I'm personally attacking you on this issue when in reality you're one of the more mature people when it comes to these arguments and I have little issue with the way you post.[/QUOTE] I am projecting that's fair to say. Sorry. I see a number of these arguments across different boards that I visit, or see re-posts of said arguments and I hear the arguments that come from youtubers who are passionate about these issues, and there's a very aggressive tone about the whole thing. There's a lot of people who don't like the idea of people who aren't trans expressing any opinions about it as they're not able to understand the entirety of the situation. I often see not being trans as being an excuse to ignore a differing opinion even if it's presented well. You didn't do that, so it's not fair I treat you like that. My bad.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52433115]I am projecting that's fair to say. Sorry. I see a number of these arguments across different boards that I visit, or see re-posts of said arguments and I hear the arguments that come from youtubers who are passionate about these issues, and there's a very aggressive tone about the whole thing. There's a lot of people who don't like the idea of people who aren't trans expressing any opinions about it as they're not able to understand the entirety of the situation. I often see not being trans as being an excuse to ignore a differing opinion even if it's presented well. You didn't do that, so it's not fair I treat you like that. My bad.[/QUOTE] I think that was the original point that 1239 was trying to make, although perhaps in a callous manner. And no worries, it's totally fine, but I do feel like these preconceived notions can get in the way of having an informed discussion about these topics.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;52433096]Not particularly, but that's besides the point. These roles are an invisible hand of influence that guide people towards and away from occupations and hobbies that are present throughout ones life. They aren't always so explicit, but they can be. It's no secret that girls frequently feel unwelcome or excluded from STEM fields, and that's because of societal notions that are tied to gender-roles, and I have met people in real life that have expressed that discomfort.[/QUOTE] influences so invisible that they can't be detected unless its by some midwitted scholar, yet influential enough to shape matters enough that people are steered away from what they want to do you're wrong on the count that at present there are plenty of people in all fields doing all sorts of different things, and it seems as though the forces bringing the desegregation of the sexes were in action decades ago. additionally, what is a "genderless environment/non-gender forced role"? how can you create and maintain one? what does it actually entail?

[QUOTE=Duck M.;52433108]If people call their kids the pronouns that correspond to their sex because that's a common sense measure that I would do myself. Where I draw the line is making my kid wear blue and play football because that's what a young man should do.[/QUOTE] This is kinda silly though. This may happen occasionally, this may happen more frequently than I believe it does, but this is a bit of a straw man of how "gender roles" play out

[QUOTE=1239the;52433061]Sure, and I would actually agree with you - but I find it a bit of a leap that listing someone's sex as "undetermined" or whatever is going to mean that paramedics are going to be at a total loss as to what to do if they come across this person in an accident, or that the parents are going to scream "DID YOU JUST ASSUME MY CHILD'S GENDER" at every doctor they visit. The default response to anything like this from FP seems to be an instant resort to projecting all kinds of insane shit on the people. "Oh they must be massive SJWs, I bet they're going to have a mental breakdown the moment someone misgenders them!!" It's fucking dumb.[/QUOTE] lmao did you actually take my joke seriously?? obviously the parent isn't going to say something like that if they're taking their kid to an emergency room.. but half your post is extrapolating off a joke so.. idk Try to see this from the average joes perspective to try and understand it?

This kid is not gonna grow up mentally healthy [editline]5th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=The golden;52431084]Your amazing display of transphobia has been noted. Thanks for being such a nice person. I'd love to know what great injustice this person did to you that warrants you mistreating them and insulting them.[/QUOTE] I think a trans person can look like a fuckwit without being transphobic, I think a black person can look like a fuckwit without being racist, and I think a woman can look like a fuckwit without being a sexist. Why do people always act like LGBT people are fragile pieces of glass?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52433124]influences so invisible that they can't be detected unless its by some midwitted scholar, yet influential enough to shape matters enough that people are steered away from what they want to do you're wrong on the count that at present there are plenty of people in all fields doing all sorts of different things, and it seems as though the forces bringing the desegregation of the sexes were in action decades ago. additionally, what is a "genderless environment/non-gender forced role"? how can you create and maintain one? what does it actually entail?[/QUOTE] Both steered away from things that they want to do and unconsciously guided towards others, yes. People being in a variety of things is not evidence to the contrary, especially when disparities exist. The question is how much of that disparity is accounted for by culture and how much is accounted for by innate psychology. Nature vs nurture is definitely a question when it comes to gender preferences and roles. I agree that the forces behind desegregation of the sexes started a long time ago, but I think we still have room for improvement and progress has not come to a point. I'd say that a genderless environment would be impossible, personally. But not forcing gender roles is easy-but unlikely to happen because I think it's a matter of marketing. Parents are more likely to buy something if its more personally tailored to their child, and the most common trait that's marketed towards is gender.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;52430605] I think where the confusion stems from for me, personally, is that the term "transgender" is somewhat misleading and confusing in that it deals with both gender [I]and[/I] sex? Sort of? I feel as if it has mostly to do with the phenomenon of gender dysphoria. But what's the point of things like being nonbinary or genderfluid? Is that a firm acknowledgement of gender roles, while making the statement that it's okay to defy them, as an alternative approach to trying to defy the gender roles themselves? Is it just for self-confidence and comfort reasons? Gender is such a confusing concept :huh:[/QUOTE] Suuuuper late here. It used to be trans[i]sexual[/i] but that didn't accurately depict gender dimorphism, because gender is and always has been a social thing, ships are a "she" for example. So it became trans[i]gender[/i] which accurately represents it.