Steam paid mods still under consideration at Valve: "We screwed things up in the details" - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=J!NX;48984591]the mods workshop lasted less than a week and we already saw a huge amount of crap. Abused from unfinished mods, no refunds for broken mods after X time, C&D/copyright issues, a mod that literally had no content and had "promised in the future huge updates", all within the [u]first official paid mods[/u]. It's all from third party content that people volunteered to make themselves as a hobby. THe worst part is, that 75% of money taken from the payment shows that paid mods wasn't about supporting the modders, it was entirely made to monetize mods.[/QUOTE] A week for a relatively novel market, partially being flooded by people who are trying to break it, is not a lot to go on. The mod that you say had no content and only promised future updates? No one should buy that. Anyone that buys it is a moron who shouldn't be trusted with money. It really isn't an actual problem, those sorts of things will not get popular, won't sell units, they'll just be an irrelevant entry in a giant list and will ultimately be deleted by moderators. Copyright issues? Already happens all over the place, even in video games curated into Steam. They get moderated away, or DMCA'd, and we all move on. Again, if people choose to buy such things, they're probably not really thinking about how they're spending their money. Any violations in officially curated content means they also lied to Bethesda, but I think the actual situation was more akin to someone following the license in a way that upset the original author. Those sorts of issues will be handled by moderation/curation. It's not an inherent problem of the system, any more than it's inherent of video games published on Steam or any other site. [B]Of course[/B] the purpose is to monetize mods. It's not like they're keeping it a secret, you're paying for mods! If you're upset at that, you're actually just upset that the mods cost money. If you haven't noticed, Steam also takes a cut from all the video games they sell. [QUOTE]people aren't saying everything should be free either (0 people said anything close to that) ... the mods being sold for 2$ on the workshop had 20% the price of garrys mod and about 50000 times less content, most of them took about 2 hours to finish, not half a year. Paid mods shouldn't be based around an already paid-for game. It should be optional, as well as handled like cosmetic items in free to play games, as secondaries. Completely separate from everything. it should also actually support modders, not take 75% of the cut away.[/QUOTE] I don't know if you're just talking about this thread, but I do see people saying or implying exactly that, and beyond this thread people [I]absolutely[/I] say that mods should be free. I also just want to emphasize the absurdity of referencing Garry's Mod in this thread - a highly successful paid mod, joining the ranks of other paid mods, like Counter-Strike and Team Fortress. These high quality mods weren't made in a week, so you really wouldn't expect to see anything comparable on Steam's paid mod system in the sliver of time we got to witness it. Paid mods are completely optional. Paid mods [I]must[/I] be based on an existing game, otherwise it wouldn't really be a mod. Modders are supported by that cut, but if a modder doesn't like the cut, they just don't make a paid mod - simple! [QUOTE]and half a year of their spare time? They never had to do anything, modders have always done it in their spare time, as a hobby, as a "ehh, I'm bored and want to create" thing, they've never done it for payment. They could have simply not made the mod had it been that inconvenient, because modders don't do it out of convenience, they do it out of wanting to do it. Why the fuck should they be paid all of a sudden.[/QUOTE] When they can get paid, they can put in hours as if it was a job! Higher skilled people will put more hours into making more awesome mods! That's how money works! [QUOTE]and the worst part is? Someone out there could release a 20$ mod that fixes the game and some people literally cannot play without it, and get away with it. Imagine if everyone had to pay for "dark souls fix" just to play the game, and pull a C&D on anyone who tries to copy the code or god forbid, release it publicly. And then an update breaks it, and it doesn't get fixed, but no one gets a refund.[/QUOTE] So, there's no problem with the mod itself here. The problem would be that the developers have dropped support for the game, so you should be upset with the developers, not the modders or the paid mod system itself. Regardless, if that fix mod is so major that it's worth $20 to people, it probably took a ton of time to produce and wouldn't have happened without the money (or a very dedicated group of players, ala Vampire Bloodlines) [editline]26th October 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=J!NX;48984662]funny thing is, like 90% of the paid mods that were officially out there would have taken less than 5 hours to make and didn't even have anything at all to emulate the idea of "This took effort"[/QUOTE] What does it matter if people are trying to sell low-effort mods? You just don't buy them. If you find a shit game on Steam, you just don't buy it, right? Those effortless mods will quickly be ignored and supplanted by mods that got effort put in. I mean, seriously, what do you expect in [I]one week?![/I]

So this is how modding dies. Not with a bang but with a buck. [QUOTE=Thy Reaper;48984258]Developer/Modder gets a low cut: Has nothing to do with you. If you're a modder, just don't make a paid mod. If you're a developer, don't produce a game.[/QUOTE] With so many people wanting a slice of the pie, modders only get the breadcrumbs, which makes it not a viable source of income. And you're at the complete mercy of the developer.

[QUOTE=J!NX;48984591]the mods workshop lasted less than a week and we already saw a huge amount of crap. Abused from unfinished mods, no refunds for broken mods after X time, C&D/copyright issues, a mod that literally had no content and had "promised in the future huge updates", all within the first official paid mods. It's all from third party content that people volunteered to make themselves as a hobby. THe worst part is, that 75% of money taken from the payment shows that paid mods wasn't about supporting the modders, it was entirely made to monetize mods.[/QUOTE] As I said it was lagging some sort of quality-check. While it was true that a few people abused the workshop, take a look at steam-games as well. Remember Day One: Garry's Incident? What about [url=http://store.steampowered.com/app/329950/]The Slaughtering Grounds[/url]? Its not steams paid-mods fault that some people got scammed, also do some research on products before you buy anything. Also, I did say that the modders should receive 70-75% of the cut or so. Depending on how much work steam is taking on their shoulder. [QUOTE=J!NX;48984591]Why the fuck should they be paid all of a sudden.[/QUOTE] Cause the developer wants it to be so? Just because scriptfodder got created, doesn't mean that all mods for gmod magically become paid-mods. Anyone can spent "those 2 hours" (As you said) and re-making the mod. Even release it for free if they feel like it. [QUOTE=J!NX;48984591]Someone out there could release a 20$ mod that fixes the game and some people literally cannot play without it, and get away with it.[/QUOTE] It is the developers job to keep the game working. However people [url=http://forum.bf1942.sk/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1813]usually[/url] [url=https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2az5kf/the_final_list_of_community_solutions_for_gamespy/]work[/url] [url=http://dethklokclan.enjin.com/forum/m/1411244/viewthread/17844803-bf2142-alpha]together[/url] to [url=http://www.pcgamer.com/community-heroes-modders-debug-and-restore-cut-content-in-knights-of-the-old-republic-ii/]patch[/url] the games they love. [QUOTE=megafat;48984574]The "Don't buy it if you don't like it" model doesn't work when something doesn't end up working advertised, i.e. Assassin's Creed: Unity, Batman: Arkham City and Watch_Dogs on PC or 98% of all Greenlight games being complete piece of shit.[/QUOTE] [i].. But, if after purchase you find that a mod is broken or doesn’t work as promised, you can easily get a refund of that mod within [b]24 hours[/b] of your purchase. View the full refund policy [url=http://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds/]here[/url].[/i] It all boils down to: "I made it. I do with it as I please". If you would like the mod but don't want to pay, make it yourself.

[QUOTE=Erebus.;48984650]and the ideological purity of mods being untouched by the mad profit seeking that permeates gaming today, AAA and indie alike.[/QUOTE] I really hate when people pull this 'but the spirit of modding is to be free!' line. Back in the early 2000s some people in the gaming community made a big stink about indie games becoming free. 'Indie game dev is a hobby, not a job'. 'Indie games are something you develop to show off so you can get hired by a real studio'. 'The community is all about collaboration, that'll disappear if people can sell their work'. 'Everything will be about making a quick buck, why put work into it?'. Then Steam came along, plus a million other digital distribution services that let anyone distribute and sell their shitty, poorly-done indie games, and it hasn't killed the genre- quite the opposite. People don't buy the shitty games (go figure) and it's made it possible for people who aren't just looking for resume material to pursue a hobby and make some money from it. Similar things happened to music, software, and mobile apps. Nobody gives me a reason for why [i]this[/i] time is different. And on top of all that, there's a long and rich history of paid mods already, so this whole 'the mod community is existentially dependent on being free' thing is inaccurate on the face of it. As far back as 1996, Id put together a pair of fan-made Doom mods and sold it as a standalone game. You're posting on a forum dedicated to a paid mod. Clearly the mod community can and has survived for two decades with high-quality paid mods being an accepted practice, the real question is how prevalent that practice can or should be. Give me reasons specific to modding for why this is a bad idea, but don't use that tired appeal to How Things Have Always Been as if it has any legitimacy. If anything, history shows that the people that have provided to their communities for free will continue to do so, and will have ample opportunity to undercut people looking to make a quick buck.

[QUOTE=Nak;48985699]As I said it was lagging some sort of quality-check. While it was true that a few people abused the workshop, take a look at steam-games as well. Remember Day One: Garry's Incident? What about [url=http://store.steampowered.com/app/329950/]The Slaughtering Grounds[/url]? There are always some scammers out there. Scammers isn't steams paid-mods fault, also do some research on products before you buy anything. Also I did say that the modders should receive 70-75% of the cut or so. Depending on how much work steam is taking on their shoulder.[/quote] Considering how screwed greenlight is, greenlight is exactly a good example of why steam shouldn't do it. Epic however, would have far better luck, and should be doing that, because they might actually care about regulation. If this wasn't steam we were talking about I'd be completely agreeing with you. [quote]Because when scriptfodder was created. Every mod for gmod became paid-mods.[/quote] Scriptfodder wasn't a company trying to monetize mods for moneys sake, it was so that modders could commission work, and there is a huge amount of free mods that exist. I don't know why you said "Every". Though, I never use scriptfodder, so I'm not really all that familiar with it, but I know it's not made by a giant mega-company like steam [quote]Cause if I've spent time on fixing my car, I should fix everyone's car for free as well. It is the developers job to keep the game working. However people [url=http://forum.bf1942.sk/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1813]usually[/url] [url=https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2az5kf/the_final_list_of_community_solutions_for_gamespy/]work[/url] [url=http://dethklokclan.enjin.com/forum/m/1411244/viewthread/17844803-bf2142-alpha]together[/url] to [url=http://www.pcgamer.com/community-heroes-modders-debug-and-restore-cut-content-in-knights-of-the-old-republic-ii/]patch[/url] the games they love.[/QUOTE] That's great and all, except mods aren't commishioned work like mechanical repairs, so why the hell are you even using this as an example? Games aren't a massive complicated and dangerous machine that transports life from one area to another area using parts that cost money and resources. You can't just write a line of code to fix a piston. You should know full well that this isn't the same thing. shame on you. [quote] [i].. But, if after purchase you find that a mod is broken or doesn’t work as promised, you can easily get a refund of that mod within [b]24 hours[/b] of your purchase. View the full refund policy [url=http://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds/]here[/url].[/i][/QUOTE] and after that 24 hours you are fucked. If you've owned it for 25 hours and an update just happens to break the mod, you can no longer use the mod or refund it. of course, paid mods are still optional, so this can be avoided easily. [editline]26th October 2015[/editline] I think Unreal T 4 getting paid mods as a free game can work 'not that you were saying this, but absolutely, steam shouldn't get paid mods, it's not the right place for it. It won't work, it can't work. It will go badly. Greenlight shows how abused it is as a platform, but Epic games has showned that they could absolutely make it work because they're working with people, they could screw it up though, so we'll have to see I agree yeah, paid mods can work... it just NEEDS to be a careful thing.

[QUOTE=catbarf;48985725]I really hate when people pull this 'but the spirit of modding is to be free!' line. Back in the early 2000s some people in the gaming community made a big stink about indie games becoming free. 'Indie game dev is a hobby, not a job'. 'Indie games are something you develop to show off so you can get hired by a real studio'. 'The community is all about collaboration, that'll disappear if people can sell their work'. 'Everything will be about making a quick buck, why put work into it?'. Then Steam came along, plus a million other digital distribution services that let anyone distribute and sell their shitty, poorly-done indie games, and it hasn't killed the genre- quite the opposite. People don't buy the shitty games (go figure) and it's made it possible for people who aren't just looking for resume material to pursue a hobby and make some money from it. Similar things happened to music, software, and mobile apps. Nobody gives me a reason for why [i]this[/i] time is different. And on top of all that, there's a long and rich history of paid mods already, so this whole 'the mod community is existentially dependent on being free' thing is inaccurate on the face of it. As far back as 1996, Id put together a pair of fan-made Doom mods [B]and sold it as a standalone game.[/B] You're posting on a forum dedicated to a paid mod. Clearly the mod community can and has survived for two decades with high-quality paid mods being an accepted practice, the real question is how prevalent that practice can or should be. Give me reasons specific to modding for why this is a bad idea, but don't use that tired appeal to How Things Have Always Been as if it has any legitimacy. If anything, history shows that the people that have provided to their communities for free will continue to do so, and will have ample opportunity to undercut people looking to make a quick buck.[/QUOTE] This is the key component that proponents of paid mods don't seem to understand. Paid mods ONLY work when they're their own functional games. Paid mods that just modify existing games has NEVER worked, and has actually ruined a number of modding communities. People made mods for GTA4 and Minecraft out of love, then as soon as someone discovered adfly every mod was put behind an ad link to scrounge up the pennies, mod makers began to attack each other as they became competition. The same has happened with The Sims, the modding scene for the Sims all but died when websites started to sell mods and the community was fractured. Personally I've always wanted to make mods, and I'm considering trying to learn to model so I can mod Fallout 4, but if there was ever a paid mod system for a game I would never touch it. Not everyone is motivated purely by money, and if that's your only motivation for doing something then you're a pretty shitty person in my eyes. I've argued this before but the modding scene for games like Fallout or The Elder Scrolls is very communal, a great many mods are collaborative and many people provide resources for mod makers without producing full mods on their own. As soon as you add a monetary element that ALL goes away, why would anyone release a free mod when someone else could take it and sell it? Why would anyone release a free resource pack when someone could compile it into a mod and sell it with no extra work? Why would anyone team up to make a large mod when making shitty skins and models is easier and gets you more money? It's like trying to set up a capitalist market inside a socialist society, either the market will fail or the society will cease to be a socialist one. Also people are fucking sick of being nickle and dimed by the games industry, it doesn't matter who it is charging them, the fact is as a consumer you're being given less and less while being charged more and more. Modding was the one thing that didn't ask you to open your wallet for every thing, it was the one thing the average consumer could reasonably take part in, and even that had to be invaded by the hawks looking to make a quick buck.

While its true that paid-mods could potential destroy a community if everyone did it. I have to disagree, there will always be 'those' people who will keep releasing free content. (I'm one of then). I'm going to stand my ground about paid mods and I'm going to tell why. The community on steam is way too disrespectful about mod-developer's work. I'm not saying that people should build a shrine, but less than 2% people who subscribe to a workshop-item vote and nearly none of those who downvoted your work will post any reason why. Modding is a lot of work and without any input, your passion will die at some point. I recently got asked about some unreleased content from a friend, that encouraged me to re-start the 1yr old project and now I'm on close to release it on the workshop. All that because I got asked about it. Paid-mods, no matter how small sum. Would boost peoples encouragement to continue their development on it/other projects. That is why I support the idea of paid-mods. Not as a money machine, but to encourage the developer. A donate option looks like a reasonable option, until you find out that only 0.001% use it. On my hand, a simple vote and feedback would be enough to encourage me to continue.

I think you mean less than 2% of people vote on your work. It's not the responsibility of the people who play your mods to rate them or tell you why they gave you a rating if they do choose to rate your work. It's always nice if they do, but the vast majority of people don't care enough to do it, especially on the Nexus where you can't even endorse someone until a certain time after you download a mod (half an hour I think), no one is going to go looking for a mod they've already downloaded just to rate or endorse it. Honestly I don't see how not voting or not telling you why they left a negative vote is "toxic". It's possible that the person had a problem running your mod, it's possible you mod wasn't very good, it's possible the person tried your mod and just didn't like it. It's nice if they elaborate but they certainly aren't, and shouldn't be, obliged to give you feedback. Paid mods absolutely can boost some people's will to keep making mods, and even inspire others to start making mods, but just the same it can (and has) drive people away from making mods, and it has also driven a wedge into the community that will probably never be removed. People say paid mods are a good thing, but even the notion of them has damaged the community and the relationships between mod authors and players.

[QUOTE=villa;48950488]Even with the blue circle around it it still took me a minute to see the donate button :v: I was looking for something that was set apart from the rest of the page, not hidden by the tags.[/QUOTE] They'd be best making the donate colour green and the others a different colour, so it stands out. Maybe even add an icon on the donate button.

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;48986215]2% thing[/QUOTE] Ah, thx I didn't notice. And I shouldn't have used the word toxic but instead disrespectful. [QUOTE=Janus Vesta;48986215]It's possible that the person had a problem running your mod, it's possible you mod wasn't very good, it's possible the person tried your mod and just didn't like it.[/QUOTE] I'm not speaking for myself when I say that no one votes. If you check some of the most downloaded content on the workshop, 5star stuff, you'll find that ruffly 2% of the people subscribed vote. [QUOTE=Janus Vesta;48986215]but just the same it can (and has) drive people away from making mods, and it has also driven a wedge into the community that will probably never be removed.[/QUOTE] Can you clarify on how it can/have driven people away from mod-development? I'm curious if there is a good reason besides the boycotting ("I don't like x, therefor nobody should have x").

[QUOTE=Nak;48986727] Also can you clarify on how it can/have driven people away from mod-development? Other than the usual boycotting because "I don't like x, therefor nobody should have x".[/QUOTE] When paid mods became a thing for Skyrim a couple of resource creators pulled their work from the nexus and have never reuploaded their work.

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;48986742]When paid mods became a thing for Skyrim a couple of resource creators pulled their work from the nexus and have never reuploaded their work.[/QUOTE] There will always be someone who disagreed with something and starts boycotting. I wouldn't say it have driven people away from mod-development. They might have acted in the same way with any other change they didn't like. And in this case, disagreeing with something that wouldn't impact them directly as a developer.