Take A Bow: Ms. Male Character Explored - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=thisispain;42975532]then dont click on the thread no one cares what you want to read[/QUOTE] Ah, the irony.

[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;42975542]Y'know I have no problem with people fighting for womens rights but in my books they're on completely the wrong front. Each day, probably thousands of underage girls are being sold and bought as sex slaves in third world countries. But sure, lets pump 1,000,000 dollars into making videos about how video games enforce negative stereotypes (maybe)[/QUOTE] why have an analysis of anything while real people are dying, right? jesus christ, there's always somebody throwing the "it doesn't matter because this is worse" argument around.

Equality. In VIDEO GAMES. Isn't the whole point of most video games to be like, you know, fun or something? Stop grasping at straws there is nothing to discuss here. Just because some dumb statements sparked a community it doesnt mean it makes sense. Didnt this whole thing come from tumblr or something? Internet argues everything to death just like in that LoL vs DoTa debatte were they were throwing shit at each other, discussing which game had the sluttier female champions and is therefore worse. Why is the Video Gaming Community full of, for the lack of a better word, crybabies? Games are the way they are because they are supposed to hit the biggest target audience and guess who the biggest target audience is hmm? You aren't going to put in some edgy characters that appeal to a minority I mean what the hell it doesnt even make sense from a marketing point of view.

[QUOTE=thisispain;42975555]we have governments and police for that[/QUOTE] Implying the government and police in third world countries aren't corrupt shitstains who get paid to look away from the sex trade

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42978930] a game can have awful art or awful character designs and still be a fun game[/QUOTE] No. When it comes to media promoting and perpetuating any sort of social ill, it should never be given a pass. By enjoying them, you promote and perpetuate their messages and you need to be held partly responsible.

[QUOTE=The Combine;42979108]Equality. In VIDEO GAMES. Isn't the whole point of most video games to be like, you know, fun or something? Stop grasping at straws there is nothing to discuss here. Just because some dumb statements sparked a community it doesnt mean it makes sense. Didnt this whole thing come from tumblr or something? Internet argues everything to death just like in that LoL vs DoTa debatte were they were throwing shit at each other, discussing which game had the sluttier female champions and is therefore worse. Why is the Video Gaming Community full of, for the lack of a better word, crybabies? Games are the way they are because they are supposed to hit the biggest target audience and guess who the biggest target audience is hmm? You aren't going to put in some edgy characters that appeal to a minority I mean what the hell it doesnt even make sense from a marketing point of view.[/QUOTE] Games have always been about being fun. But as games expand and grow as a media, they need to grow the almighty fuck up. If we want games to have engaging stories, with believable characters, and actual depth. Then the writers of games, and the consumers of games should be expect to promote more equal ideals of women (and men) in games. I don't even know what the fuck you're trying to get at here other than "omg no the femiimsimsm are taking muh game". Games aren't "the way they are" because of your shoddy reasoning, they are this way because writing for them is atrocious, and always falls into these tropes for certain character types. I don't like Anita, but I will give her dues for pointing this out to the ignorant masses. A equal female characters is in no way "edgy", and doesn't appeal to any minorities, because they are equal they would be relateable to by everyone, not just used as a reward, or a man in a female body.

[QUOTE=Sokrates;42975612]FYI these are the same people that are boycotting PAX because of the dickwolves joke[/QUOTE] actually they super aren't doing that, at least not because of the joke. the problem started when people were like "hey this joke's maybe a bit dark, could you maybe tone it down a bit" and Penny Arcade responded by basically calling them idiots for having problems with it, and then eventually commercialized the controversy with t shirts and shit. so it's pretty much got nothing at all to do with the joke, just with the way that PA acted like huge dicks over it for no good reason. honestly, pretending that it only started because "OH THE SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIORS HATE FUN" is a gross oversimplification of people's feelings and, frankly, a completely retarded one to make at that.

[QUOTE=Midas22;42975495]I liked RPS when they actually wrote about video games and not all this meta social justice stuff. Can we just get rid of them? We may as well have Sarkeesian's twitter feed.[/QUOTE] You're exaggerating. Going over the articles in November alone there are only three even remotely related to female characters in video games, and one of those was the clarification article for the HotS story. For every "meta social justice" (what even is that?) article they do they produce 20 to 30 regular video games ones. If it really bothers you so much then simply don't click RPS newsbot posts. There are dozens of news posts a day I don't even look at because they are about topics I'm not interested in.

[QUOTE=LurkyLurker;42979590]No. When it comes to media promoting and perpetuating any sort of social ill, it should never be given a pass. By enjoying them, you promote and perpetuate their messages and you need to be held partly responsible.[/QUOTE] that's not what i'm implying, i'm taking the piss out of midas because he said something stupid.

While I agree that women aren't portrayed well in many games I think it's pretty fucking ridiculous that she constantly uses Ms. Pac Man and Princess Peach as the main talking points of sexism in the industry. Thanks for pointing out 30 year old characters no one even considers as anything more than basic archetypes Anita, want to talk about characters made in the past 10 years rather than referring to them offhandedly?

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;42983810]While I agree that women aren't portrayed well in many games I think it's pretty fucking ridiculous that she constantly uses Ms. Pac Man and Princess Peach as the main talking points of sexism in the industry. Thanks for pointing out 30 year old characters no one even considers as anything more than basic archetypes Anita, want to talk about characters made in the past 10 years rather than referring to them offhandedly?[/QUOTE] she probably does it because they're iconic and well-known characters. everybody knows mario games. everyone knows pac man.

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42983941]she probably does it because they're iconic and well-known characters. everybody knows mario games. everyone knows pac man.[/QUOTE] But Pac Man and Mario are both games with minimal stories and haven't changed their formula in decades. Mario is based on the 'hero saves princess from bad guy' story with no further context and Pac Man is 'Eat pills, then ghosts. If you have a bow you're a lady'. The stories in the games are so simplistic that they only barely can be considered stories at all. Criticism of female characters in games would be better served by looking at more recent games and how they are portrayed than by talking about 30+ year old characters and implying every character offhandedly referred to meets the same tropes, when it often isn't the case. Her Ms. Male video talked about how taking a male character and making him female (ala Ms. Pac Man) is the wrong way of making good female characters, but the prominent issues of women in games are over sexualisation and token female characters. I know she does talk about these things too but she also argues the exact wrong points, like picking Dragon's Crown as an example of over sexualisation when it is a game built entirely on extremes of physical appearance for all 6 characters.

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;42984052]But Pac Man and Mario are both games with minimal stories and haven't changed their formula in decades. Mario is based on the 'hero saves princess from bad guy' story with no further context and Pac Man is 'Eat pills, then ghosts. If you have a bow you're a lady'. The stories in the games are so simplistic that they only barely can be considered stories at all. Criticism of female characters in games would be better served by looking at more recent games and how they are portrayed than by talking about 30+ year old characters and implying every character offhandedly referred to meets the same tropes, when it often isn't the case. Her Ms. Male video talked about how taking a male character and making him female (ala Ms. Pac Man) is the wrong way of making good female characters, but the prominent issues of women in games are over sexualisation and token female characters. I know she does talk about these things too but she also argues the exact wrong points, like picking Dragon's Crown as an example of over sexualisation when it is a game built entirely on extremes of physical appearance for all 6 characters.[/QUOTE] the reason she brought up ms pacman is because she was one of the first "ms male" characters in gaming, while also being a good example of adding "gender" stuff like a bow, lipstick, and a beauty mark. [editline]25th November 2013[/editline] also her main point is that using these "female aspect" tropes reinforces strict gender roles which isn't good for anybody.

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42984111]the reason she brought up ms pacman is because she was one of the first "ms male" characters in gaming, while also being a good example of adding "gender" stuff like a bow, lipstick, and a beauty mark. [editline]25th November 2013[/editline] also her main point is that using these "female aspect" tropes reinforces strict gender roles which isn't good for anybody.[/QUOTE] So what gender role is eating white dots? Because both Mr. and Ms. Man do that. It may be one of the first examples but it is also a pretty terrible example.

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;42984153]So what gender role is eating white dots? Because both Mr. and Ms. Man do that. It may be one of the first examples but it is also a pretty terrible example.[/QUOTE] swoosh the bow, the high heels, the bright makeup, being a bratty princess, the color pink, dresses, skirts, etc, etc, etc. did you even watch the video

Oh no another thread. Last one I wrote a thousand word intro to feminism viewed through the lens of sociology along with commentary on being privileged and what it means in the greater picture of different battling social groups. And then the thread was locked and I realized I should never put that much effort into arguing on Facepunch

another one of her good points is that characters who are made "girly" like bowser's daughter, ms pacman, ms bomberman, that pink angry bird + the redesign of the white bird, wonder pink, are completely devoid of any other charactarstics because they're just labeled as "girl." look at the diversity of all of the characters of wonderful 101. great, right? you can tell what they're like based on their designs. then look at wonder pink. since she's designed like a "girl lady" the only character traits she has are "shopping!!!!" "boys :)" "look i'm a girl i'm pretty."

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42984111]the reason she brought up ms pacman is because she was one of the first "ms male" characters in gaming, while also being a good example of adding "gender" stuff like a bow, lipstick, and a beauty mark. [editline]25th November 2013[/editline] also her main point is that using these "female aspect" tropes reinforces strict gender roles which isn't good for anybody.[/QUOTE] devil's advocate: how else could you portray a yellow sphere with arms, legs, a mouth and eyes as "female", without using things like that?

no i think the point was in games that a characters feminine identity relies upon simplistic gender markers added to an otherwise traditional male concept which means that the character has no unique self-agency, ie no real quality to separate them beyond the stereotypical gender or sexual markers so "female-hood" is reduced to those specific markers. the ms. pac-man is the simplest way to get this idea across. age has nothing to do with this. i hate 2 say it but i get the feeling you didnt watch or care to listen to what anita sarkagawea had 2 say tbh [editline]25th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=TacticalBacon;42984191]devil's advocate: how else could you portray a yellow sphere with arms, legs, a mouth and eyes as "female", without using things like that?[/QUOTE] why does a yellow sphere need to have a gender

[QUOTE=TacticalBacon;42984191]devil's advocate: how else could you portray a yellow sphere with arms, legs, a mouth and eyes as "female", without using things like that?[/QUOTE] don't? it's not relevant in the gameplay, nor does it even matter at all. anita sacagawea brought up claire from thomas was alone as an excellent example. how do you tell claire is a girl? the narrator says she's a girl. does her gender affect like, anything? no. there's no reason AT ALL to put a bow and high heels on a character just to show what gender they are. it's detrimental to the game's characters, plot, image, and society because gender roles.

Videogames, made mainly by males, and played mainly by males, end up having a lot of male characters. I am not quite sure why this is so surprising, when 1 gender makes up 90% of the player base it only seems logical to have the main protagonist to be something the gross of your playerbase can relate the most with.

[QUOTE=thisispain;42984193]why does a yellow sphere need to have a gender[/QUOTE] A very good question. The only answer I can think of is because they wanted to make a sequel but didn't have enough gameplay changes to justify it, so they stuck a bow on her head and went "YOU PLAY AS A GIRL NOW THIS IS TOTALLY A NEW GAME GUYS".

[QUOTE=Cold;42984213]Videogames, made mainly by males, and played mainly by males, end up having a lot of male characters. I am not quite sure why this is so surprising, When 1 gender makes up 90% of the player base it only seems logical to have the main protagonist to be something the gross of your playerbase can relate the most with.[/QUOTE] I think we have gone over the amount of women playing video games a thousand times before. I mean we still argue about the exact numbers or what counts as video games but it is certainly not 10% and it is very obvious that women are playing these games too, else nobody would have ever made any complaints in the first place. [editline]25th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=TacticalBacon;42984216]A very good question. The only answer I can think of is because they wanted to make a sequel but didn't have enough gameplay changes to justify it, so they stuck a bow on her head and went "YOU PLAY AS A GIRL NOW THIS IS TOTALLY A NEW GAME GUYS".[/QUOTE] They had no creativity at all so they perpetuated gender stereotyping. The fact they did it over being lazy almost makes it worse.

[QUOTE=TacticalBacon;42984216]A very good question. The only answer I can think of is because they wanted to make a sequel but didn't have enough gameplay changes to justify it, so they stuck a bow on her head and went "YOU PLAY AS A GIRL NOW THIS IS TOTALLY A NEW GAME GUYS".[/QUOTE] yea and comes with a lot of consequences and questions, how the feminine identity in videogames are not simply one half of the human experience but something to be used to sell more product

[QUOTE=Shugo;42976093]B-but the muscly guys are there for the male power fantasy!!! Guys WANT to be stereotyped like this so they feel empowered over women!!![/QUOTE] The problem with this part of what you said is that it is actually true. The few times men are ACTUALLY treated the same way as women in the media it creates controversy and disapproval because men are generally not used to feeling how women do, like the reaction to the way Marina and the Diamonds used men in her video "How to be a Heartbreaker" [editline]25th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;42975542]Y'know I have no problem with people fighting for womens rights but in my books they're on completely the wrong front. Each day, probably thousands of underage girls are being sold and bought as sex slaves in third world countries. But sure, lets pump 1,000,000 dollars into making videos about how video games enforce negative stereotypes (maybe)[/QUOTE] Worse things are happening that do not involve video games! Quickly let us drop everything we are doing and pretend we can only collectively do one thing at a time!!!! Advocating for a thing does not imply it is more important than another thing. I have been spending a lot of time talking about video game feminism but yeah obviously sex trafficking is much worse a problem. What many do not understand is that all of this is tied together in the way most societies in the world view women and how the image of women is perpetuated by the media's representation of women. The world would not be so fucked up if it were not for that view, and what Anita is trying to do, in her very specific way, is change that view.

[QUOTE=person11;42984224]I think we have gone over the amount of women playing video games a thousand times before. I mean we still argue about the exact numbers or what counts as video games but it is certainly not 10% and it is very obvious that women are playing these games too, else nobody would have ever made any complaints in the first place. [/QUOTE] I am sure the numbers are incredibly far off, and that the percentage of female gamers is always increasing, but for a game like mass effect the male gender still makes up most players. But when main complaint of the girl of about Mass Effect 3, is that they put the male protagonist in the commercials and on the front of the game. I am not sure what she is expecting here, you can only put 1 gender on the box.

[QUOTE=Cold;42984274]I am sure the numbers are incredibly far off, and that the percentage of female gamers is always increasing, but for a game like mass effect the male gender still makes up most players. But when main complaint of the girl of about Mass Effect 3, is that they put the male protagonist in the commercials and on the front of the game. I am not sure what she is expecting here, you can only put 1 gender on the box.[/QUOTE] That seems an arbitrary restriction? I see the logic of not wanting to confuse people and appealing to the consumer base in this case, but you could put the choices on two different sides of the box, or on different advertisements or trailers or SOMETHING. If it is not a sign of structural misogyny than it is a general lack of creativity.

[QUOTE=thisispain;42984254]yea and comes with a lot of consequences and questions, how the feminine identity in videogames are not simply one half of the human experience but something to be used to sell more product[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=person11;42984224]They had no creativity at all so they perpetuated gender stereotyping. The fact they did it over being lazy almost makes it worse.[/QUOTE] you know, you're right man the more i think about ms pac-man, the shittier it gets as an idea

[QUOTE=Mericet;42975629]Strawman arguments, blocking comments and cherry picking the worst feedback. They do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. The only thing worse than self serving people like Sarkeesian using a hot button issue to make money off people is that the people she claims to represent are desperate enough for representation that they'll let her and John Walker's bullshit slide.[/QUOTE] I am pretty sure we'd have heard about it if she misused the Kickstarter money from her backers... The blocking comments thing comes up in every thread about her and people always strawman her up as some sort of manipulator and censor who is restricting muh free speech, but there were WAY more threats and horrifying comments on the internet about her than she could possible cherry pick or engineer. The hate and violence directed towards her was very much real and unplanned, not "cherry picking the worst feedback". From what was said about her, it follows she would block comments. I'd not want threats against me under every single one of my videos.

[QUOTE=person11;42984288]That seems an arbitrary restriction? I see the logic of not wanting to confuse people and appealing to the consumer base in this case, but you could put the choices on two different sides of the box, or on different advertisements or trailers or SOMETHING. If it is not a sign of structural misogyny than it is a general lack of creativity.[/QUOTE] If you are advertising a product, you don't want to do that with 2 different main protagonist. I am sure there are maybe a few creative way about this, but you can't blame them for not being creative. On top of that, Mass Effect it has a revertible box cover, with the female on the other side. Her complaint was that the female cover wasn't default. If you would go as far as making a commercial with both them in them, her next step of complaint would be that the male protagonist is showed before the female one.