[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42984163]swoosh
the bow, the high heels, the bright makeup, being a bratty princess, the color pink, dresses, skirts, etc, etc, etc.
did you even watch the video[/QUOTE]
Yes I did. My point was Ms. Pac Man was made 32 years ago, most people haven't though about Ms. Pac Man in roughly 30 years. Criticising the modern games industry based on the most rudimentary of games is both pointless and disingenuous. Women in games are very rarely portrayed as 'just being the girl' any more, and those which are were either designed decades ago or are featured in games where the overall writing is so terrible that having one dimensional women is just a symptom of larger writing issues.
Also I don't see how having a female character wear a skirt or dress is sexist.
[QUOTE=Sokrates;42975612]FYI these are the same people that are boycotting PAX because of the dickwolves joke
I used to love RPS, now they are a fucking joke. It has become less about games and more about "muh equality & femenism"[/QUOTE]
I feel like using muh in front of things is turning into a new way of sounding awful and boring without saying anything (oh wait fuck I just used it in my last post). I guess I could come up with more.
Also it is amazing how you can imply that feminism relating to video games is "not about video games". RPS is talking about someone talking about sexism in video games, and you say that it is less about games? It's weird that it is no longer relevant to video games as soon as you do not like it.
And to be honest the dickwolf thing was dumb and only got worse when they started making money off of it.
[editline]25th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cold;42984308]If you are advertising a product, you don't want to do that with 2 different main protagonist.
I am sure there are maybe a few creative way about this, but you can't blame them for not being creative.
On top of that, Mass Effect it has a revertible box cover, with the female on the other side.
Her complaint was that the female cover wasn't default.
If you would go as far as making a commercial with both them in them, her next step of complaint would be that the male protagonist is showed before the female one.[/QUOTE]
She would sorta have a point if she said that, though. In this case, maybe not if the vast majority playing are guys, I guess. But even in that case guys should not be so averse to trying out a game in which the default is a girl.
Why not have a cool action scifi adventure shooter in which the character is default a woman but COULD be a guy? It's been the entire history of media in which the default protagonist of nearly everything was male, might want to switch it up some time...
[editline]25th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Midas22;42975495]I liked RPS when they actually wrote about video games and not all this meta social justice stuff. Can we just get rid of them? We may as well have Sarkeesian's twitter feed.[/QUOTE]
I don't understand, yet again, how someone talking about sexism in video games is not relevant enough for a news webside about video games.
What strange and arbitrary restrictions you have.
[editline]25th November 2013[/editline]
ALSO: You wanting to get rid of them for talking about this is a good example of how mainstream values and norms of a society will naturally lead to the desire to remove things that question those values and norms too well. We ought to keep RPS, these Walker articles might convince someone, and will therefore make the world just a bit of a better place.
[QUOTE=person11;42984332]
She would sorta have a point if she said that, though. In this case, maybe not if the vast majority playing are guys, I guess. But even in that case guys should not be so averse to trying out a game in which the default is a girl.
Why not have a cool action scifi adventure shooter in which the character is default a woman but COULD be a guy? It's been the entire history of media in which the default protagonist of nearly everything was male, might want to switch it up some time...[/QUOTE]
I am pretty sure this brings me back to the "large amount of player base being males"
and the stereotype of guys who go around punching and breaking and killing stuff.
[editline]26th November 2013[/editline]
You know what, i am pretty sure we are viewing this the wrong way around.
I don't want to be stereotypicaly related to these, violent punching spitting and shooting monsters of people.
[editline]26th November 2013[/editline]
We should be toning down the male steriotype rather then toning up the female one.
[QUOTE=Cold;42984368]I am pretty sure this brings me back to the "large amount of player base being males"
and the stereotype of guys who go around punching and breaking and killing stuff.[/QUOTE]
What I meant was, why does the large amount of the base being male mean the character has to be male by default? There is a natural/social desire to play as what looks like you, but I feel like there is room to put pressure on that age old method of marketing/making games or other media: we do not need to play as what we are or what we look like.
[QUOTE=person11;42984380]What I meant was, why does the large amount of the base being male mean the character has to be male by default? There is a natural/social desire to play as what looks like you, but I feel like there is room to put pressure on that age old method of marketing/making games or other media: we do not need to play as what we are or what we look like.[/QUOTE]
You want people to relate to what they are watching or playing.
It Increases the immersion.
Why does the character have to be female, can't you just relate to the male character.
It saves a lot of time animating, and modeling, texturing, voiceovering everything twice.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;42984331] Criticising the modern games industry based on the most rudimentary of games is both pointless and disingenuous.
[/QUOTE]
i think she was explaining a trope dude
[QUOTE=Cold;42984368]
You know what, i am pretty sure we are viewing this the wrong way around.
I don't want to be stereotypicaly related to these, violent punching spitting and shooting monsters of people.
[editline]26th November 2013[/editline]
We should be toning down the male steriotype rather then toning up the female one.[/QUOTE]
Female stereotypes are much more harmful to women than male stereotypes are to men. Women are objectified, sexualized, used as props to move the story along, and rarely well written. The way men are represented is not alike in any way.
The removal of all stereotypes (and eventually, the concept of gender itself) is the end goal, but removing female stereotypes first is definitely more important.
ultimately the point of these videos is to illustrate tropes in videogames, not to criticize the modern gaming industry or anything (tho certainly illustrating tropes is part of a good criticism of such)
[editline]25th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=person11;42984391]Female stereotypes are much more harmful to women than male stereotypes are to men. Women are objectified, sexualized, used as props to move the story along, and rarely well written. The way men are represented is not alike in any way.
The removal of all stereotypes (and eventually, the concept of gender itself) is the end goal, but removing female stereotypes first is definitely more important.[/QUOTE]
well who's end goal? i dont think videogame developers really have that goal.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42984395]ultimately the point of these videos is to illustrate tropes in videogames, not to criticize the modern gaming industry or anything (tho certainly illustrating tropes is part of a good criticism of such)[/QUOTE]
If the ultimate point isn't to criticise she's doing a terrible job at it. Not that she shouldn't criticise. Also pointing out tropes which are already regularly discussed is pointless, especially when they are old tropes.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;42984410]If the ultimate point isn't to criticise she's doing a terrible job at it. Not that she shouldn't criticise. Also pointing out tropes which are already regularly discussed is pointless, especially when they are old tropes.[/QUOTE]
if you say so
i mean i learnt something but ok
[QUOTE=Cold;42984384]You want people to relate to what they are watching or playing.
It Increases the immersion.
Why does the character have to be female, can't you just relate to the male character.
It saves a lot of time animating, and modeling, texturing, voiceovering everything twice.[/QUOTE]
In general it strikes me as not creative at all. Maleshep may make sense for Mass Effect and its audience, but relating everything directly to audience sets a shitty precedent in which you make all characters male as long as there are slightly more male gamers than female, which may deter women from wanting to play...
It's not like you are never allowed to make guy characters again or whatever, one should just question as much as possible about the industry.
[editline]25th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;42984410]If the ultimate point isn't to criticise she's doing a terrible job at it. Not that she shouldn't criticise. Also pointing out tropes which are already regularly discussed is pointless, especially when they are old tropes.[/QUOTE]
They are old tropes, but this video has marked the first I have seen them talked about on Facepunch. She is bringing practically ancient sociological concepts to the video gaming community, which fell asleep drawing pictures of dicks in the back of the Sociology 101 class.
[editline]25th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=thisispain;42984395]ultimately the point of these videos is to illustrate tropes in videogames, not to criticize the modern gaming industry or anything (tho certainly illustrating tropes is part of a good criticism of such)
[editline]25th November 2013[/editline]
well who's end goal? i dont think videogame developers really have that goal.[/QUOTE]
I meant the end goal of feminism (at least a part of it) is that. Video game developers like making video games for creative fulfillment and/or money.
And talking about tropes that are still used (not blatantly like Ms. Pacman) in the industry could be taken as a criticism of the industry. And one could certainly extend that criticism to the community because of their defense of the practice.
[editline]26th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Midas22;42975518]If we're talking about the times they're made then I suppose I could point out the graphical limitations of Pac-Man and how difficult it would've been to point out gender in video games back then but Sarkeesian forgot to mention that. She then goes on to say that pink and purple are typical identifiers of gender while wearing a god damn purple and pink shirt/wearing pink lipstick which is just a smack in the face.
Also she says that females are "identified" in games while males are not which makes females the "exception" and alienated... Has she seen a modern male protagonist lately? They're all short brown haired, well toned and sometimes bearded individuals and if she spent so much time focusing on that game "designed by a 13 year old" called Dragon's Crown she'd maybe realise that the male characters in this are fucking muscly tanks
I don't read video game articles for the politics, i read them for the [I]video games[/I][/QUOTE]
You are allowed to criticize things and use them. Femininity is how men have controlled women forever, but that does not mean activists have to give their own femininity up to protest. The end goal allows for lipstick and certain colors, but without them being associated with any specific sex. What she is saying is that you could just say she is a girl, or figure out a way to do it without stereotypes? Maybe use the identifier on the 8 bit model and then have the game art not be blatantly stereotypical? There are many creative ways to solve these problems but male developers in many cases rarely give more than half a seconds thought to women.
The modern male protagonist is seen as a default because every game has a similar main character, the women in these games are always "the girl", meaning are only relevant for their status as one of the only characters to be a girl. Just like how in many old TV shows, every group of guy friends had one girl who was just "the girl".
Women as other as a concept was defined very well by De Beauvoir: "Man is defined as a human being and a woman as a female - whenever she behaves as a human being she is said to imitate the male."
And if you want to be interested in video games, you ought to give a shit about how they are relevant in our society and complicit, just like all other media, in patriarchal values and norms. I can't obligate you to give a shit though.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;42984331]Yes I did. My point was Ms. Pac Man was made 32 years ago, most people haven't though about Ms. Pac Man in roughly 30 years. Criticising the modern games industry based on the most rudimentary of games is both pointless and disingenuous. Women in games are very rarely portrayed as 'just being the girl' any more, and those which are were either designed decades ago or are featured in games where the overall writing is so terrible that having one dimensional women is just a symptom of larger writing issues.
Also I don't see how having a female character wear a skirt or dress is sexist.[/QUOTE]
She does go over modern examples. She takes note of how those tropes are still present in mobile game industry, an rapidly-growing industry that's way more accesible to other gamers.
[editline]26th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cold;42984368]I am pretty sure this brings me back to the "large amount of player base being males"
and the stereotype of guys who go around punching and breaking and killing stuff.
[editline]26th November 2013[/editline]
You know what, i am pretty sure we are viewing this the wrong way around.
I don't want to be stereotypicaly related to these, violent punching spitting and shooting monsters of people.
[editline]26th November 2013[/editline]
We should be toning down the male steriotype rather then toning up the female one.[/QUOTE]
There's a reason why it has a large male player-base. It's not that we're genetically hardwired to love the AAA gaming market, some speculate that society tends to connect "male" with "aggression" and "female" with "timidity".
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;42984410]If the ultimate point isn't to criticise she's doing a terrible job at it. Not that she shouldn't criticise. Also pointing out tropes which are already regularly discussed is pointless, especially when they are old tropes.[/QUOTE]
those tropes still exist dude
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42983118]that's not what i'm implying, i'm taking the piss out of midas because he said something stupid.[/QUOTE]
[B]When it comes to media promoting and perpetuating any sort of social ill, it should never be given a pass[/B]. By enjoying [I]any element[/I] of them, You are just as guilty. Mass Effect, Super Mario, Ms. Pac Man, etc should be destroyed, not enjoyed.
[QUOTE=person11;42984422]
And if you want to be interested in video games, you ought to give a shit about how they are relevant in our society and complicit, just like all other media, in patriarchal values and norms. [B]I can't obligate you to give a shit though[/B].[/QUOTE]
[I]We need to[/I]. We need to shove them into their own feces. So they can smell them, taste them, and show them just how sick and ugly they are as human beings for making or enjoying any of this media. Don't show these animals any mercy.
[QUOTE=person11;42984422]
It's not like you are never allowed to make guy characters again or whatever, [B]one should just question as much as possible about the industry[/B].[/QUOTE]
[B][I]QUESTIONING IS NOT ENOUGH[/I][/B]. For questions to be effective, they must be acted on. All white, privileged males have ever done is [I]shit and piss on[/I] everyone else that's not them. The media they create and enjoy is just an extension of that. They need to be punished for it.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42984254]yea and comes with a lot of consequences and questions, how the feminine identity in videogames are not simply one half of the human experience but something to be used to sell more product[/QUOTE]
"How does this '80s arcade game make me view the world differently?"
[QUOTE=LurkyLurker;42988269][B]When it comes to media promoting and perpetuating any sort of social ill, it should never be given a pass[/B]. By enjoying [I]any element[/I] of them, You are just as guilty. Mass Effect, Super Mario, Ms. Pac Man, etc should be destroyed, not enjoyed.
[I]We need to[/I]. We need to shove them into their own feces. So they can smell them, taste them, and show them just how sick and ugly they are as human beings for making or enjoying any of this media. Don't show these animals any mercy.
[B][I]QUESTIONING IS NOT ENOUGH[/I][/B]. For questions to be effective, they must be acted on. All white, privileged males have ever done is [I]shit and piss on[/I] everyone else that's not them. The media they create and enjoy is just an extension of that. They need to be punished for it.[/QUOTE]
Okay stylistically this is a bit much especially the poop part but yes your points are valid and I agree
[QUOTE=person11;42992283]Okay stylistically this is a bit much especially the poop part but yes your points are valid and I agree[/QUOTE]
Base and crude as it may be, white shit needs to be called white shit because they're nothing [I]but[/I] shit.
like
anita's video is good
it isn't hostile, it just kinda observes the phenomenon, and it's genuinely kinda interesting
then you get morons like the author of this article making the subject hostile and thus making everything terrible
[QUOTE=TacticalBacon;42984191]devil's advocate: how else could you portray a yellow sphere with arms, legs, a mouth and eyes as "female", without using things like that?[/QUOTE]
counter argument: why do you see a yellow circle with arms, legs, and a mouth and immediately assume that the character is male when it has no inherently male characteristics
the whole video explored the concept of male as the default gender and how when people see said circle, they automatically think it's male and in order for the circle to be female it needs a bow
she didn't criticize or attack the trope, she merely observed it
you'd know that if you actually watched the video
[QUOTE=person11;42984183]Oh no another thread. Last one I wrote a thousand word intro to feminism viewed through the lens of sociology along with commentary on being privileged and what it means in the greater picture of different battling social groups.
And then the thread was locked and I realized I should never put that much effort into arguing on Facepunch[/QUOTE]
honestly your posts are really insightful and have really changed my views on women in video games (and feminism in general). it helps that you're not awfully condescending when you make your points either.
so yeah, don't think your arguing on facepunch is a waste of time or something. you're helping people like me see things from another perspective.
[QUOTE=The Calzone;42992651]counter argument: why do you see a yellow circle with arms, legs, and a mouth and immediately assume that the character is male when it has no inherently male characteristics
the whole video explored the concept of male as the default gender and how when people see said circle, they automatically think it's male and in order for the circle to be female it needs a bow
she didn't criticize or attack the trope, she merely observed it
you'd know that if you actually watched the video[/QUOTE]
because his name is pac-man. being called "something man" typically means you're male
[QUOTE=TacticalBacon;42992782]because his name is pac-man. being called "something man" typically means you're male[/QUOTE]
sweet jesus I couldn't have imagined a lamer counter-argument if I tried
[QUOTE=person11;42992283]Okay stylistically this is a bit much especially the poop part but yes your points are valid and I agree[/QUOTE]
When you find yourself agreeing with a strawman sockpuppet, I think it's time for some real self-reflection.
[QUOTE=lazyguy;42989580]"How does this '80s arcade game make me view the world differently?"[/QUOTE]
i was talking about the trope but ok
[editline]26th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mingebox;42992885]When you find yourself agreeing with a strawman sockpuppet, I think it's time for some real self-reflection.[/QUOTE]
trolling is illegal OK!
[QUOTE=LurkyLurker;42992521]Base and crude as it may be, white shit needs to be called white shit because they're nothing [I]but[/I] shit.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it's true but saying stuff like that just gives ignorant people an excuse to dismiss you I guess? Being polite does not work most of the time either, but I guess there is a balance somewhere in the middle of being so polite you are practically complicit or being (rightfully) mean and letting people dismiss your point for that reason.
[editline]26th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=The Calzone;42992651]like
anita's video is good
it isn't hostile, it just kinda observes the phenomenon, and it's genuinely kinda interesting
then you get morons like the author of this article making the subject hostile and thus making everything terrible
counter argument: why do you see a yellow circle with arms, legs, and a mouth and immediately assume that the character is male when it has no inherently male characteristics
the whole video explored the concept of male as the default gender and how when people see said circle, they automatically think it's male and in order for the circle to be female it needs a bow
she didn't criticize or attack the trope, she merely observed it
you'd know that if you actually watched the video[/QUOTE]
The thing is that people like the author etc are only following the logic of the videos to the conclusion that these tropes are harmful, reflective of misogyny in the community, and need to stop. The hostility was started by the misogynists, the way I see it. Any hostile person on the good side is just reacting to that.
Also yes this video did very well at explaining Woman as Other. She observed the trope, but it is obvious she does not like it or want it to continue.
[editline]26th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Owner2;42992704]honestly your posts are really insightful and have really changed my views on women in video games (and feminism in general). it helps that you're not awfully condescending when you make your points either.
so yeah, don't think your arguing on facepunch is a waste of time or something. you're helping people like me see things from another perspective.[/QUOTE]
Oh my god I am flattered, thank you! I feel much better about these threads now!
[editline]26th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mingebox;42992885]When you find yourself agreeing with a strawman sockpuppet, I think it's time for some real self-reflection.[/QUOTE]
It's kinda funny how, even if its a troll, the points are still valid. Like if that was REALLY an attempt at trolling it failed hilariously due to being true.
It's like if someone went up to Galileo and was like "haha I totally agree the sun TOTALLY is in the center of the world!!!" to troll him or something like that
Also the Funny ratings on all my posts here just make me think of people laughing at Galileo "get a load of this dude he thinks the earth goes around the sun i bet he cant even get laid"
[QUOTE=person11;42993873]
It's kinda funny how, even if its a troll, the points are still valid. Like if that was REALLY an attempt at trolling it failed hilariously due to being true.
It's like if someone went up to Galileo and was like "haha I totally agree the sun TOTALLY is in the center of the world!!!" to troll him or something like that
Also the Funny ratings on all my posts here just make me think of people laughing at Galileo "get a load of this dude he thinks the earth goes around the sun i bet he cant even get laid"[/QUOTE]
It's kinda of funny how think those rational words made by a totally well-adjusted person who's typing ability isn't in any way hampered by having to wear a straight jacket. If Galileo was anything like that guy, it's a good thing they locked him up before he started biting people.
[QUOTE=person11;42993873]It's kinda funny how, even if its a troll, the points are still valid. Like if that was REALLY an attempt at trolling it failed hilariously due to being true.
It's like if someone went up to Galileo and was like "haha I totally agree the sun TOTALLY is in the center of the world!!!" to troll him or something like that
Also the Funny ratings on all my posts here just make me think of people laughing at Galileo "get a load of this dude he thinks the earth goes around the sun i bet he cant even get laid"[/QUOTE]
It's not hard to troll and be right, you do know that, right? Trolling is just being purposefully fallacious to get a rise out of someone, it doesn't mean you have to be wrong, just you have to be a cock about whatever. The posts are pretty clearly massive strawmen and while the idea is right, that particular interpretation is pretty awful. Agreeing with it just makes you look like a fucking lunatic too.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;42993996]It's not hard to troll and be right, you do know that, right? Trolling is just being purposefully fallacious to get a rise out of someone, it doesn't mean you have to be wrong, just you have to be a cock about whatever. The posts are pretty clearly massive strawmen and while the idea is right, that particular interpretation is pretty awful. Agreeing with it just makes you look like a fucking lunatic too.[/QUOTE]
Then again, Person11 regularly goes into Poe territory himself, maybe he's in on it.
trolling is just one of the many weapons i have to fight the patriarchy
[QUOTE=LurkyLurker;42988269][B]When it comes to media promoting and perpetuating any sort of social ill, it should never be given a pass[/B]. By enjoying [I]any element[/I] of them, You are just as guilty. Mass Effect, Super Mario, Ms. Pac Man, etc should be destroyed, not enjoyed.
[I]We need to[/I]. We need to shove them into their own feces. So they can smell them, taste them, and show them just how sick and ugly they are as human beings for making or enjoying any of this media. Don't show these animals any mercy.
[B][I]QUESTIONING IS NOT ENOUGH[/I][/B]. For questions to be effective, they must be acted on. All white, privileged males have ever done is [I]shit and piss on[/I] everyone else that's not them. The media they create and enjoy is just an extension of that. They need to be punished for it.[/QUOTE]
So now that I know I'm a terrible person because of something I was born with and had no control over, may I ask what master race/gender you are a part of that makes you superior and not "white shit"? :v:
[QUOTE=Elspin;42994604]So now that I know I'm a terrible person because of something I was born with and had no control over, may I ask what master race/gender you are a part of that makes you superior and not "white shit"? :v:[/QUOTE]
you can be white and privileged and not be a white asshole.
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