Bethesda say they "need to prove Doom is worth reviving"
56 replies, posted
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;45314674]question
why were there chainsaws on mars
[editline]7th July 2014[/editline]
like seriously, they probably don't grow trees on the station and if they need to cut anything they have like plasma welders and shit like that!
why are there chainsawSSS!![/QUOTE]
There was a shipment error to Phobos. That's literally the reason. I think it was explained somewhere in both canons.
[QUOTE=Raizo;45314620]you mean ruin it
[editline]7th July 2014[/editline]
that new wolfenstein is beyond shitty, take an example and make a potential doom 2014 anything but that.[/QUOTE]
except not really
[QUOTE=blackachu;45314710]There was a shipment error to Phobos. That's literally the reason. I think it was explained somewhere in both canons.[/QUOTE]
oh fuck that explains a lot then
dang
did people somehow forget that doom is supposed to actually be an intense 'corridor' shooter horror, with challenging enemies less in quantity - save for zombified grunts - and more in ambush placement, or strength? where the fuck is all this 'rip and tear, rip and tear, super edgy fuck shit up gore edition is doom' stuff. a re-skinned duke nukem 3D game would be a better doom than what some of you are suggesting
I don't know much about Doom stuff, but I think people are getting it from a Doom comic that was like that.
Guess people just seemed to assume the game was trying to be that after seeing it- not that you can totally blame them. The game lends itself well to it.
[QUOTE=Pernoccuous;45314895]did people somehow forget that doom is supposed to actually be an intense 'corridor' shooter horror, with challenging enemies less in quantity - save for zombified grunts - and more in ambush placement, or strength? where the fuck is all this 'rip and tear, rip and tear, super edgy fuck shit up gore edition is doom' stuff. a re-skinned duke nukem 3D game would be a better doom than what some of you are suggesting[/QUOTE]
the popularity of brutaldoom is my best guess, and the comic book.
[QUOTE=LoLWaT?;45314820]Was it ever explained in the original Doom? I know when you get to the Comm. Transfer sector in Doom 3 you find a freaking mountain of Beavertooth chainsaw boxes in one of the warehouses and a nearby PDA explaining it but they sort of just had it randomly there for the originals.
[editline]7th July 2014[/editline]
Doesn't seem it ever was explained. Chop it up to rip and tear I guess[/QUOTE]
I like to think their purpose was so the personnel on the bases could have chainsaw jousts to pass the time.
[QUOTE=Korova;45308478]If they do to Doom what they did to Wolfenstein, I'll be very happy.[/QUOTE]
I don't understand it. I really don't. Did the marketing campaign have such a large effect on you guys? Or is there something I don't see in the new Wolfenstein that makes it so much better than the other games?
Because in essence, there is nothing gameplay-wise that makes "Wolfenstein: The New Order" stand out from its predecessors. In a way, it even has the most restrictive gameplay out of all of them. So how and why does it get so much praise?
Well I'm going to try and explain my standpoint, potential spoilers follow:
Let us first start off with the things it definitely does great, better than any of its predecessors: It has very high quality textures and models, impressive map geometry, very good voice-acting with actors actually speaking in foreign tongue without a flaw, an interesting concept and a huge marketing campaign, with journalists going out of their way to praise the game for being the best thing since sliced bread before it was even released, no criticism or anything.
Now the mediocre parts.. Well, let me just start off by saying that it is the slowest paced Wolfenstein in the franchise. Despite being in a world controlled by Nazis, you kill less enemies than in any of the previous games before it, and you repeatedly have long boring chapters where you go around doing fetch-quests in the same goddamn building, occasionally killing around 3 enemies or so. And the variety of these enemies is also severely lacking. In the previous Wolfensteins, you had fire-spitting undead, teleporting assasins slashing everything in their path, converted humans that crawl on the ceilings, latex babes that could kick your ass in high-heels, mechanical supersoldiers with miniguns, mutilated creatures that jump with electrical parts zapping you and a large variety of footsoldiers among which you also have magic users and flying Nazis with rocket launchers. You of course also have a good amount of bosses across both games, which are all quite intersting too. And I didn't mention all enemies right here.
In the New Order, the foot-soldiers tend to be almost the same all the time, apart from their clothing. In addition, you have Commanders, shotgun troopers, rocket troopers and laser soldiers in one level, but most of the time it's guys with assault rifles. The super soldiers in armors return of course, and then we also have generic large robot enemies, along with smaller ones which you encounter very rarely. The robots themselves also disappear at one point until the very last level, where they make a brief reappearance. Then there's an amount of enemies that appear only once. The Panzerhund appears several times, but the only time you can kill it is at the very end, and there it is VERY anticlimactic. Then, there's a larger version of the robot that barely does any damage for some reason, which is basically a huge bullet sponge, but otherwise, the same as the other robots. And finally, there are only two bosses. I'm not qualifying the [sp] brain in a jar [/sp] as a boss as he can be dispatched in approximately ten seconds if you know what to do. (I'm not really counting dogs as enemies, because all you have to do when they attack is mash the attack button. Same goes for the terrible melee soldiers)
So in essence, it's nothing outrageous, it's (almost) all ordinary humans and robots, even the bosses.
Moving on, the levels tend to be super linear. Really the corridor shooting style of gameplay, sugar-coated by having two "timelines" in which two characters are swapped out, but really nothing changes to the story itself. Gameplay-wise, you get a new ability to take a different linear path through the levels at one or two occasions, to places where you already have been before in the previous playthrough. There was no point to the different timelines, other than having a marketing gimmick. The stealth feature is also very underdeveloped, as you get to use it with different approaches only like twice in the game. And it really takes away from your experience when you don't go in guns blazing, as with stealth, you'll have an even lower amount of enemies than you would have normally.
What is strange is that the previous game in the series, Wolfenstein 2009, is the most non-linear out of all of them, yet is the most hated. You get a large hub world with many different missions, most of which you can play in any order you want. You also get a lot of collectibles to find, which even help expand the gameplay mechanics by giving you access to upgrades.
The selection of weapons in the New Order is disappointing, at least for someone who played the previous games. You get a knife, a pistol, an assault rifle with rockets, a shotgun, a marksman with laser module, and a standalone laser gun, the latter being the only weapon that really feels new. Throughout the game you swap them for more "futuristic" versions of the weapons, using the term futuristic very loosely here, as many of the weapons you got in Wolfenstein 2009 were much more futuristic than these guns. You can also dual weild any of them, which ends up acting more like a gimmick than being useful in the end though. You'll hardly ever need to weild two of them at once as the enemy count is so low, the only place where I needed it was the occasional robots and the super soldiers. Being able to aim with the assault rifle is more than enough to kill most of the regular enemies though, which is soldiers. Dogs hardly present a threat as you can just stab them, and you'll only face a single Panzerhund in the entire game. On the harder difficulties, going out guns blazing is a death sentence, so you'll have to resort to the "hide in corners" mechanic, that was severely nerfed here.
In RTCW, the selection of weapons was not very futuristic, but you did get a very large pool to choose from. for every slot you had on average two different types of weapons to meet your needs. In Wolfenstein 2009, the difference is even more jarring. Here, you get three futuristic weapons, in addition to a flamethrower, a rocket launcher AND your magic veil powers. You can also upgrade any of these weapons, to make them interesting even later in the game. Of course, you can also upgrade the weapons in The New Order, albeit only once, and you will always get them in every playthrough, so it's not really a choice.
Finally, the biggest problem with the New Order: A ton of features packed into the game, but none of them really explored. I already mentioned that the two timelines are basically just gimmicks to artifically lenghten the playtime without any real addition, but let me elaborate by presenting you some of the things you'll encounter throughout the story:
Story spoilers: [sp] First of all, at the end of Eisenwald prison, you escape in a car with either Fergus or Wyatt. The game has fully implemented car controls, physics and everything. How long does this section last? 20 seconds.
You drive through a door, up a ramp, through a window and bam, drive's over. No more car for you. Really? Could they not have implemented a car chase here, something that lets the game show the new city of Berlin? You could have done so much with this part, but it was all for a stupid gimmick, probably to show in trailers for the huge marketing campaign.[/sp]
[sp]Next up: The Robot in the death camp. While it is a mechanic you get to use for a longer while than the car, it is still very short. You walk down a single corridor, shoot a bunch of robots and soldiers, help the prisoners escape, and then it's over. Time: 10 minutes.
I'm not complaining too much about this part as they at least did something with it. Still, it is another one of those features that never comes back later.[/sp]
[sp]And then, the big turd: The moon. Yes, you get to walk on the surface of the moon. How long do you ask? 2 minutes. What do you do on there you ask?
Come out a door, walk to the left, kill three small robots, jump down, go in a door, basta. That's all folks. The rest of the moon-base you get to shoot in corridors again. Again, no real gameplay element introduced, only a gimmick so that the marketing campaign could boast with nonexistant crap yet again. All that sets the moonbase apart is that enemies use lasers instead of hitscan weapons.[/sp]
[sp]Stealth is another part of the game that just falls flat. There is no real satisfaction to killing enemies silently, as most of the time you'd rather be blasting shit, like you guys always love to do it. Sometimes, the stealth doesn't even last, and enemies simply detect you for no reason whatsoever because the story needs to continue. Additionally, melee guards and dogs should have been overhauled. Their AI is terrible, and the most damage they'll ever do to you is less than 20hp. When they stunlock you, all you have to do is mash buttons to get out of it. Real innovative.
Then, again, there's the parts where you fetch shit for other NPCs. It really feels like filler for the game because they couldn't think of enough interesting areas to make, and in the end, they had to boast with a 20 hour campaign, right?[/sp]
In the end, you get a really slow-paced FPS, where the shooting part didn't get enough focus. The previous games in the series, RTCW and 2009 at least focused on this, and placed less weight on the story and additional gimmicks. And it shows.
So, does the story at least hold up? [sp] You team up with the last remaining resistance members of the Kreisau Circle, and try to take down the Nazi regime that has by now, taken control of the world. So why the fuck do they go for the 100 year old Deathshead, who's gonna die of old age any moment anyways? What advantage does it give them to kill this old fart, other than some personal gratification? In the previous games, there was the entire Paranormal division set up by Himmler himself, which had tons of scientists and other big name characters, some just as crazy as Deathshead. What happened to those figures? Himmler, Hitler, Rommel? Are they all non-existant to the protagonists? And why did we never get to use any Jew weapons ourselves?
Then, there's the constant inner monologue by BJ. It's supposed to come over as deep, but it just seems foolish when you're shooting dozens of Nazi soldiers in the head, many who by now have families to mourn over them once they get shot by our hero. He however never sheds a thought to them, but constantly cries about the death of his own allies. In addition to that, the other NPCs seem to carry some incredible grudge against Blazkowicz. No matter how many successful missions you complete, they always treat you like a dumb piece of shit afterwards. This never happened in the previous games, and it really doesn't help the feeling of the story. The ending is also nonsensical for the aforementioned reason of, THE ENTIRE WORLD IS RUN BY NAZIS, WHY DIE NOW, THEY NEED YOU STILL[/sp]
So after all this, I would tend to say that Wolfenstein 2009, besides the "bloody-screen-so-real" effects, and the consolized controls (which can be fixed using mods), has ultimately more to offer in the shooter aspect of the game, which is surprising as it is most often hailed as a mediocre piece of shit, wheras this game is praised like the second coming of [del]christ[/del] RTCW.
The article itself here makes the same assumption that the 2009 game was terrible, but I don't understand why they say it is a "tarnished brand". Since RTCW and before The New Order, the only main title to come out was 2009. Was it really THAT bad to tarnish the entire brand? And the same goes for Doom, the only game to come out there was Doom 3, not counting the mobile games. And just like 2009, Doom 3 was not really mediocre or terrible. It was good in it's own right, but many people feel that it wasn't the true Doom experience they remember. I can't say the same for Wolfenstein 2009, as it very much feels like RTCW, just with different features.
And really, there is nothing to "prove" here. If it's good, it's good. If it's bad, it's bad. In either case, market it to hell and back, give it shiny graphics and it will probably be received just as well as The New Order was.
I liked The New Order and all, but to me it didn't feel special or any bit challenging. The only times I died on Uber was when I tried to get challenges and needed more enemies to kill.
Or that one time I had to jump into the helicopter and kept going out through the back.
[QUOTE=Samiam22;45315089]the popularity of brutaldoom is my best guess, and the comic book.[/QUOTE]
people who didn't play doom back in the day
[QUOTE=Doom64hunter;45315232]Or is there something I don't see in the new Wolfenstein that makes it so much better than the other games?
[/QUOTE]
oh, I don't know
maybe that it's better than the majority of recent action shooters?
Oh damn, I'm stupid. There was no explanation for the chainsaws in 1 and 2. My mistake. I was thinking there was some kind of behind-the-scenes thing where it was explained. Nope, it's actually there because RIP AND TEAR.
[QUOTE=Doom64hunter;45315232]This is fucking huge so I'm just going to rip and tear your huge text[/QUOTE]
You forgot to add a TL;DR saying "I didn't like it so it's bad."
I liked DOOM on the Xbox 360 more than the Vanilla PC game, seems like the controller was actually pretty good for DOOM since there was no vertical aiming
[QUOTE=DeEz;45315437]people who didn't play doom back in the day[/QUOTE]
I didn't play Doom back in the day and I really want the new Doom to be Brutal doom with amazing graphics.
Maybe that wouldn't be Doom anymore, but you can't deny that it would be extremely fun.
[QUOTE=Doom64hunter;45315232]I don't understand it. I really don't. Did the marketing campaign have such a large effect on you guys? Or is there something I don't see in the new Wolfenstein that makes it so much better than the other games? (Huge wall of text that I read all of)[/QUOTE]
And you know, I completely agree with you on almost all of that. But I still really enjoyed TNO.
[QUOTE=Samiam22;45315089]the popularity of brutaldoom is my best guess, and the comic book.[/QUOTE]Don't forget that Doom was one of the very first flagship titles for "Murder Simulators Corrupting Children" scaremongering in the media, due to it's comparatively gory content and huuuge popularity with kids.
Doom was fairly visceral [i]for the time[/i]; in much the same way that the flickering lights, enemy idle groans, and ambush placements made it fairly scary [i]for the time[/i]. It wasn't Mortal Kombat, but it wasn't Silent Hill either.
[QUOTE=Raizo;45314620]you mean ruin it
[editline]7th July 2014[/editline]
that new wolfenstein is beyond shitty, take an example and make a potential doom 2014 anything but that.[/QUOTE]
I think this is the first time I seen someone on FP say that.
TNO did wolfenstein right finally. I actually connected to the story and characters, and it immersed me like... well shit no other game's immersed me like this.
I'd love if they kept the formula that made TNO good and apply it to Doom. Give it a outlandish but somehow believable story (minus "jews did it"), a doomguy who does more than grunt (bj's thoughts to himself were amazing), and a world that's more than just "mars base lol"
[QUOTE=Pernoccuous;45314895]did people somehow forget that doom is supposed to actually be an intense 'corridor' shooter horror, with challenging enemies less in quantity - save for zombified grunts - and more in ambush placement, or strength? where the fuck is all this 'rip and tear, rip and tear, super edgy fuck shit up gore edition is doom' stuff. a re-skinned duke nukem 3D game would be a better doom than what some of you are suggesting[/QUOTE]
Ok then I'll elaborate on what I'd want them to aim for and what Machine Games did well with New Order:
[B]Pacing[/B]
It is completely possible to have an atmospheric shooter with many tense scenarios, tactical weapon usage and naturally scary moments whilst having some hefty segments with lots of gore. Everything relies on pacing with a game such as this.
I just like games where you take out your pants and enjoy.
[QUOTE=DeEz;45315437]people who didn't play doom back in the day[/QUOTE]
Played a fuckton of doom, modded their sources, messed with many different ports and even wrote a tool to concat files into a wad.
While the excessive gore is just a joke, gore is a big part of what doom is, it contributes to the heavy atmosphere, the gritty music and the ambushy, fast paced gameplay of doom.
[QUOTE=eirexe;45327755]I just like games where you take out your pants and enjoy.[/QUOTE]
[url=http://store.steampowered.com/app/252490/]I have just the thing for you.[/url]
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.