Former Blizzard dev: World of Warcraft killed the MMO genre - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Raidyr;41273864]Actually it's incredibly easy, people just don't buy those games. The mindset is that WoW killed the sandbox genre when sandbox games are still coming out. People just don't want to play them. EVE is doing well but still less than a million subscribers after all these years, and games like Darkfall and Mortal Online never get above the tens of thousands at launch then rather quickly fade away. Meanwhile games like Rift, Guild Wars 2, and SWTOR, themepark MMO's built off the proven WoW formula, sell like hotcakes. If sandbox MMO's are the holy grail of gaming I have to wonder why they seem to be so unpopoular other than That Space Game.[/QUOTE] Fairly obvious; to date I have not seen an MMO in line with Mortal Online or Darkfall (EVE, while being Sandboxish, is an entire different sub-genre of Sandbox at this moment in time, a lesser one frankly in terms of content comparably) in mechanics that has been done with a professional dev team that has an AAA budget (the last one I can think of actually is SWG). Not enough budget to work on things that really matter nor time to polish and make them look and run good. Games like MO lack polish and it shows; their very "indie" (however far you want to stretch that term) like nature puts off people. I know it did me, despite the fun I had playing it. The other problem is a simple fact that most people don't like the full-loot PvP, or that the game is based around PvP, and almost all of those Sandbox-like MMO's revolve around this aspect for some reason. EVE, like WoW, came out in a perfect storm of variables that allowed them both to soar into new realms of popularity (a reason I do not think we'll ever see another game reach the level WoW did). They came out exactly when the gaming world was ripe with the seeds needing their nourishment. That odd analogy aside; you're not likely to see any full-loot PvP-based MMO soar into massive popularity like EVE any time soon, especially when they're all done by lower-budget teams. There's a lack of vision with them too. They do some things to the extreme spectrum of mechanics and half ass the others, which in turn leaves distaste with the people that were hoping for another realized game with those said mechanics. Easiest example I can give is MO's housing system; it's fairly shit in terms of actual use and customization. Many people I know, especially myself, were banking on it being like SWG (they kept referencing its housing system back in the day when talking about theirs, so naturally the interest was grown). However it was fairly shit in beta and is still shit today. It barely resembles the housing system from SWG; it was more than just local instanced housing, it was the customization that hooked people in. MO lacked that in spades and still does today, despite it being one of their core features they talked/talk about. Crafting was supposed to be immensely complex and rewarding, but frankly the crafting is fairly standard and, I found, not very advanced. I'll harken back to SWG, which had people playing that for years and never even making characters that could fight, such was the depth provided and simple enjoyment of the crafting process -- rather than the chore most games seem intent on making it today. When I think about it, EVE is so well accepted despite it being a PvP-based game probably almost completely because it [I]is[/I] fairly simple and lack luster in terms of actual content. The simplicity allowed them to focus more on the action and less on the other things (which may or may not be a good thing depending on your perspective) and causes less longing in the playerbase. There's no half-assed housing system that totted up to be the next 'standard' in gaming just hanging around doing nothing; no "deep, complex" crafting system that isn't really that complex (mayhaps a small explanation for the overwhelming negativity EVE had when they tried to focus on that station shit). It's what it says it is and does it well. Maybe that's this generation of Sandbox's real cause for failure -- they aren't what they claim to be and don't do it well. It doesn't bode well for any other market in the world, I don't see why video gaming would be any different.

[QUOTE=FPSMango;41272191]Oh and how can I forget the extremely creative farming minigame: [img]http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.com/media/2012/07/tillerswateringcrops1.png[/img] AKA: World of Farmville[/QUOTE] You forgot to mention the Pokemon feature... Talk about lack of content and trying to keep the "masses" glue-stuck to WoW.

[QUOTE=Dr. Haxx;41276735]You forgot to mention the Pokemon feature... Talk about lack of content and trying to keep the "masses" glue-stuck to WoW.[/QUOTE] Pet battles are a fun distraction, what is wrong with that?

[QUOTE=Atlascore;41273218]I said that because I think the game looks very unimpressive.[/QUOTE] You mean this? [video=youtube;Tr_KVNrxtRI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr_KVNrxtRI[/video] and this? [video=youtube;za3e6-YLYWI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za3e6-YLYWI[/video] The only things they've ever shown on the game? [editline]2nd July 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Gmod4ever;41273937]My dad absolutely [b]despises[/b] World of Warcraft. My parents are both avid MMO players; they always play games together. They bought Everquest the day it was first released. I remember being six years old and sitting on my mum's lap as they played Everquest. [/QUOTE] That's awesome. It's very rare that you're able to share that kind of interest with your partner. Usually it's the whole "my boyfriend/husband is always on the fucking computer".

[QUOTE=Raidyr;41273864]Actually it's incredibly easy, people just don't buy those games. The mindset is that WoW killed the sandbox genre when sandbox games are still coming out. People just don't want to play them. EVE is doing well but still less than a million subscribers after all these years, and games like Darkfall and Mortal Online never get above the tens of thousands at launch then rather quickly fade away. Meanwhile games like Rift, Guild Wars 2, and SWTOR, themepark MMO's built off the proven WoW formula, sell like hotcakes. If sandbox MMO's are the holy grail of gaming I have to wonder why they seem to be so unpopoular other than That Space Game.[/QUOTE] Pretty much every MMO (themepark or sandbox) fails. I think the main problem is they all require a subscription, and that's an outdated business model. Nobody wants to pay 15€/month (on top of the game's price) when there are dozens of F2Ps out there.

[QUOTE=Kljunas;41277062]Pretty much every MMO (themepark or sandbox) fails. I think the main problem is they all require a subscription, and that's an outdated business model. Nobody wants to pay 15€/month (on top of the game's price) when there are dozens of F2Ps out there.[/QUOTE] "no-one" "although still the 800-pound gorilla with more than 8.3 million subscribers."

[QUOTE=Kljunas;41277062]Pretty much every MMO (themepark or sandbox) fails. I think the main problem is they all require a subscription, and that's an outdated business model. Nobody wants to pay 15€/month (on top of the game's price) when there are dozens of F2Ps out there.[/QUOTE] Luckily a lot of these next generation MMOs are going either B2P or F2P with cosmetics/freemium benefits.

[QUOTE=ironman17;41271787]You, uh, you what now? Oh wait, I assume you meant played like mad for the free 30 days offered to you. Well that's a relief. Personally I played for just under 6 months before I got bored; one thing I used to do was explore and run all the way from the starting point to the highest-tier zone possible, like running all the way to the Dark Portal with a level 1 character. In terms of actually playing the game, though, my main was a Dwarven Hunter, and I got past the Level 40 mark before I quit.[/QUOTE] I learned the term [url=http://onlineslangdictionary.com/meaning-definition-of/fuck-the-dog]"fuck a dog"[/url] right here at Facepunch which meant "doing useless shit". I can't believe nobody recognises it.

[QUOTE=thisispain;41277104]"no-one" "although still the 800-pound gorilla with more than 8.3 million subscribers."[/QUOTE] I was mainly talking about all these post-WoW games. People who aren't already playing subscription-based MMOs aren't likely to pay a sub for a new game when they could just play an F2P or even Guild Wars instead. And people who already play WoW or Eve will just stick to it. Also very few people will actually start playing WoW now. Their playerbase is declining afaik.

How did WoW kill the genre? That's like saying CoD killed the FPS genre because the casual/accessible game design was hella popular and everyone is trying to emulate it. [editline]2nd July 2013[/editline] The only problem with MMOs is that no one can innovate enough to make people play their MMOs. I almost never pay attention to MMORPGs anymore because all they do is try to copy WoW. There are some gems out there but the vast majority are just WoW clones.

[QUOTE=ashxu;41277454]How did WoW kill the genre? That's like saying CoD killed the FPS genre because the casual/accessible game design was hella popular and everyone is trying to emulate it.[/QUOTE] It killed the genre because it set an insanely specific standard and every MMO that even slightly diverges from this standard has a 90% chance of fucking up immensely. You have to do things the way WoW does it, or else people will complain things are not like WoW. Not to mention it pushed so much developers to try an release a "wow killer" game that ends up being shit because they focused so much on doing better than WoW that it ends up being either a mess or a pristine copy of what it's trying to beat. Call of duty had a bit similar effect by pushing so many licenses into including exact elements from its series (sprinting, same controller scheme, quick instadeath melee, climbing QTEs, slow mo after busting a door, kill streaks, etc), and essentially shaping the FPS shooter scene entirely to be mostly made of failed CoD clones (the two most recent MoH titles) or games that would have been much better if they hadn't tried to copy the call of duty formula so much (halo 4, crysis 2). The good part being, it forces people to do something unique and diverge from the exhausted dry corpse that is the modern shooter genre. It's not really blizzard's fault, really. They did a successful MMO out of a successful franchise and it turned into a success, which was expected. What was less expectable was the way developers started to consider this an immediate standard for some reason and almost every MMO that followed turned into a copy of WoW.

Just remembered this video: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=466Qm-j56T4#at=432[/media] It has some good points.

[QUOTE=ashxu;41277454]How did WoW kill the genre? That's like saying CoD killed the FPS genre because the casual/accessible game design was hella popular and everyone is trying to emulate it. [editline]2nd July 2013[/editline] The only problem with MMOs is that no one can innovate enough to make people play their MMOs. I almost never pay attention to MMORPGs anymore because all they do is try to copy WoW. There are some gems out there but the vast majority are just WoW clones.[/QUOTE] that's exactly how it killed it though for the years that followed WoW, the vast majority of MMOs that came had no depth, no complexity to them or their worlds they were really just linear games with an occasional dungeon and/or raid on the way to remind you that this is a multiplayer game and shitty basic mechanics like combat to remind you that this is an MMO but MMOs aren't about leveling, dungeoneering, raiding and gear grinding, well not until post WoW's popularity boom they were they were about experiencing the world, about interacting with the world's denizens, playing a role inside that massive world but the people required more shit to do since exploration and lore are hard, and thus the focus on dungeons, leveling content and PvP - people were playing WoW like a race for the max level and then the best gear when I played WoW, I was just too amazed by the world to actually want to go do the quests, my gear was perpetually terrible, I was "wasting time" walking around towns, getting booze to drink, trying to find cool places (I really really loved that one bar in Stormwind's old town, I think a Paladin quest leads there), I loved just traveling from city to city, I absolutely loved taking the tram to Ironforge and then flying back on a gryphon and seeing the high level areas from the safety of the sky, I'd often set up "quests" for myself, like getting to, at first, Dalaran, and then Northrend or Outland at a low level, meeting the faction leaders (I was incredibly thrilled about being able to meet Thrall in Orgrimmar). The world had so much to it, I wanted to absorb it all, meet the old Draenei, the remnants of the High Elves, explore every little roadside outpost, find why it's there, what role does it play, did it appear in any other of the Warcraft games, maybe find a cool spot and ask some friends to come over there and share the experience. Azeroth was actually a fun place to explore, and this exploration should be what drives the MMO, not a single streamlined path from level 1 to what's the cap now, 90? and then repeating the same raids to get the best gear or min-maxing for the arena for additional e-peen value. The most exciting moments were raids on the opposing factions capitals, just running and hiding from the pillaging horde of orcs, trolls and tauren and hoping they don't smack your head off was incredible and after wow became popular, you'll notice how sterile and straight forward the worlds had become - all the quests hubs guarded by immortal NPCs (was most disappointed by it in WAR) or there isn't an opposing faction at all, travel completely simplified to teleportation, and everything was just really really cut down to destroy any inconveniences, while it was those inconveniences that made the world feel so alive - I despised how I could spent skill points, stash crafting materials, auction off items, send and receive mail, teleport to anywhere in the world, access all PvP content in GW2 from the safety of wherever the fuck I am - there's a reason WoW forced you to return to a skill trainer, a mailbox, a bank, an auction house or a gryphon handler. The world really didn't feel like a world anymore in most games, it just felt like the surroundings of your path to max level and best gear

[QUOTE=Atlascore;41279644]First video looks like some character from the Sims[/QUOTE] Bullshit. Ain't nothing that was demonstrated in the vid in the Sims beyond the fact that they looked like people in which case you could make your weak complaint against hundreds of games. You do realize the focus of the vid was on the physical interactions and not the character right? I dunno you tell us since nothing does seem to impress you, ever. Honestly seems like you're just giving it it shit because "lol vampires". I would however be glad to be proven wrong but that's the impression you're giving off.

[QUOTE=FPSMango;41272191]Reasons who vanilla WoW was twenty-times better than current WoW: No 40% xp increase heirloom-gear. No teleporting matchmaking that meant you could go through the whole game without actually seeing the game-world. Dungeons in low-level weren't "press follow on heirloom-gear guy and AFK while he solo the whole thing". No 5x out-of-combat regen until level 20. Questing in low-levels was actually challenging. Getting to level 60 was an achievement and the pros did it in 24 hours of game-time, now you can do 1-60 in a couple hours with minimal effort. Honestly I can't see why Blizzard haven't removed all the zones of the game that were meant for players under level 60 and aren't just giving players level 60 characters when they make their characters... Oh wait they already did that with the death-knight. :v: [editline]2nd July 2013[/editline] Oh and how can I forget the extremely creative farming minigame: [img]http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.com/media/2012/07/tillerswateringcrops1.png[/img] AKA: World of Farmville[/QUOTE] It seems you never played vanilla. Questing was so fun without any questhelper and without mount because it was too expensive and you got first mount at level 40. Finding instance group was a fun task, it sometimes took over 1 hour to find a group, and then 2 people had to run to that instance entrance. What about Class skills like Warrior stances and Druid forms? Go do that long and boring questline in the middle of nowhere. You couldn't buy skills, because they were too expensive, you couldn't buy dual spec because it was too expensive, you couldn't do anything because everything was too expensive. Yeah, it was allright.

[QUOTE=Zantze;41280787]You couldn't buy skills, because they were too expensive, you couldn't buy dual spec because it was too expensive, you couldn't do anything because everything was too expensive.[/QUOTE] I never had gold issues back then. Used to make twinks and buy all their gear just because of the overflow of money not doing anything else. People just don't know how to properly exploit the markets and take the time required to amass wealth -- like the rich people do in every game. When I went back to WoW last year for a spell I started with a fresh account; had 6,000 gold by the time I was in my mid 40s just selling ore, yet people will [I]still[/I] complain that mount training is too much for their budget. Nothing has actually changed about gold mechanics that would drastically alter the system -- gold just inflated while the many other systems didn't evolve to match that, which is the natural progression of MMO currency anyway these days.

I am a bit amused that no seems to form a coherent opinion that WoW is a great addition to MMOs as well as killed them. It is often the way of things that an great leap forward leaves nothing in its wake, see Seinfeld and [I]all[/I] the following sitcoms after. Start with easier, the lesser opinion is that WoW is great and is still good or maybe was good? Well, maybe. But I think we probably should accept WoW isn't very good and not much fun at the current iteration at any rate. The prevailing opinion seems to be that WoW's removal all the mindless bullshit ruined the fun. Really? You like your bags full of useless shit that you can't remove until you take the fifteeen minute hike to return to town? Nonsense. That's padding, plain and simple. Not everything that used to be is good. Thank goodness for GW 2 getting rid of so much horrible game mechanics--it does a much better job than WoW in that. But back to the game at hand, eliminating level grinding is a little more nuanced. There are two ways to get rid of the tedium: either level up fast or make the the processes of leveling fun. It seems WoW went the first way, which would be fine if it gives you something else to do. That is a bit mixed, but joining five unknown other players to tackle a dungeon once in a while joyous experience. Usually, it doesn't really go the way it suppose to. So what if the healer has to tank? It's the interaction with other people that MMOs offer that other games really don't. That's really is the point, isn't it? Really, I am surprised that no one has mentioned the one thing that WoW has really boned, the skills. It used to be you were free to add this in any way you like. True, you could make a really useless player, but that was up to you. Sure those [I]elite[/I] endgamers proclaimed only one path to make the [I]best[/I] character, but that matters little to me. Even the previous addition was pretty streamlined, but the Panda crap really hit a new low. It just ruined all the fun of making a character forcing the player to make limited choices. This isn't hardcore verus casual player either. I know both endgamers and yearlings that both hated the changes. If you want to blame the decline of WoW on anything, blame that. Why interact with other people if everyone is the same? WoW wasn't great for a while , but it was fun. I don't really know if it is even that anymore. It's a little more nuanced to say WoW killed MMOs. Eventually people will get bored with WoW, which many already have, and there is nothing wrong with Blizzard trying to attract those that weren't interested in the game to squeeze some remaining life into the final years. But no matter what they do, WoW isn't going to last forever. It may be right now there is nothing MMOs can do that provide enough original content and experiences that WoW hasn't already done--at least to a critical mass of people. In that case, MMOs will be dead for the time being. WoW then will have killed MMOs but not necessarily for doing anything wrong, which is not to say it did nothing wrong only that none of those changes/gameplay mechanics/pokemans/travesties affected the death of MMOs. I think I may have already said the entirety of this analysis in my last post--if in a sarcastic, shorter form--but who doesn't love a more pedantic style? [QUOTE=Axznma;41281578]I never had gold issues back then. Used to make twinks and buy all their gear just because of the overflow of money not doing anything else. People just don't know how to properly exploit the markets and take the time required to amass wealth -- like the rich people do in every game. When I went back to WoW last year for a spell I started with a fresh account; had 6,000 gold by the time I was in my mid 40s just selling ore, yet people will [I]still[/I] complain that mount training is too much for their budget. Nothing has actually changed about gold mechanics that would drastically alter the system -- gold just inflated while the many other systems didn't evolve to match that, which is the natural progression of MMO currency anyway these days.[/QUOTE] I don't understand. Isn't the point of every good MMO to mine. Mmm, mining... I haven't done a complete analysis, but I do find it interesting that the vaule of gold coin in GW 2 seems pretty stable from the opening days until now. I'd like to use the price of wheat like Adam Smith, but alas, instead I used dye-nearly spot on.

Traveling to Silverwing Grove for Warsong Gulch back in the day was the shit. Sure, it was a little inconvenient, but it added to the experience.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;41279644]First video looks like some character from the Sims, second video is just some generic city blocks, what exactly am I supposed be impressed by?[/QUOTE] And what is there to be unimpressed by? The first video is from 2010, which is probably way out-dated at any rate, and the second video is literally just a graphics test. We know little of how the game actually works aside from that it is a Sandbox game, people can run cities, and a few other tidbits.

[QUOTE=FPSMango;41272191]Reasons who vanilla WoW was twenty-times better than current WoW: No 40% xp increase heirloom-gear. [b]Don't use it[/b] No teleporting matchmaking that meant you could go through the whole game without actually seeing the game-world. [b]Don't use it[/b] Dungeons in low-level weren't "press follow on heirloom-gear guy and AFK while he solo the whole thing". [b]Don't do it[/b] No 5x out-of-combat regen until level 20. [b]And?[/b] Questing in low-levels was actually challenging. [b]Personal preference in quests/Challenging is subjective[/b] Getting to level 60 was an achievement and the pros did it in 24 hours of game-time, now you can do 1-60 in a couple hours with minimal effort. [b]A bloo bloo bloo people are rushing and not appreciating the world, blizzard sucks; a bloo bloo bloo make rushing more rewarding blizzard you suck[/b] Honestly I can't see why Blizzard haven't removed all the zones of the game that were meant for players under level 60 and aren't just giving players level 60 characters when they make their characters... Oh wait they already did that with the death-knight. :v: [b]For one it's level 55, two you have to get that far in the first place, three don't use it if you don't like it, DK is a shit class anyway[/b][/quote] [quote] Oh and how can I forget the extremely creative farming minigame: [img]http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.com/media/2012/07/tillerswateringcrops1.png[/img] AKA: World of Farmville[/QUOTE] Stop the fucking presses, a POP CULTURE REFERENCE in WORLD OF WARCRAFT I don't even play it anymore, but jesus half the time when people bitch about this game it's either optional shit or cherry picking.

star trek online's doing fine