Top World of Warcraft raiding guild quits; "We’ve basically been killing ourselves off slowly since - Sensationalist Headlines

It's unfortunate that so many people have such a poor experience with this game, but honestly, I completely agree that starting a character on a realm where you don't have a level 90 to fund you, no heirlooms, no friends who play the game, really sucks. The levelling is slow and monotonous, if you queue for PvP you'll almost definitely get your shit wrecked, and you even if you happen to get invited to a level 25 guild nobody is going to speak with you. I would not be playing right now if it wasn't for the fact that I know a bunch of people who play the game, I have heirlooms to level any class I want to at any point, and gold is pouring out of every orifice at level 90. It's cliche to say 'no, trust me, it gets better!' but this game really is awful on the lower end of things. On top of which, I can't really say I feel the monotony most people experience. Sure, if I only had LFR-difficulty raids to look forward to, i'd quit right now, but as it stands my main character is pretty much geared enough to push through most of ToT. I still have Challenge Modes to look forward to, Heroic Scenarios coming out in 5.3, and an entire new raid coming out in 5.4. Throne of Thunder really is a fantastic raid, arguably one of the best designed since Ulduar, and each boss presents challenging mechanics. Even if your raid team laughs in the face of normal mode, I dare you to look me in the eyes and say Lei Shen heroic is easy, or isn't challenging. Go ahead and try, just so i can laugh in your face. The game sucks when you have no gear, have few friends, and aren't trying challenging content. Just keep pushing those random BGs until you've got malevolent - PvP is unbalanced but it's much less so when you're geared. Just keep farming those heroic dungeons until you've got some gear, try and find an MSV group, and build up to current content. Horridon+ really is quite fun on normal mode (although jin'rokh, the first boss, is quite honestly faceroll if your group isn't braindead). If you're running some of those things (and no, LFR doesn't count. I made a sandwich as a healer during Durumu last night on LFR and nobody died.) and still just don't enjoy the treadmill aspect of the game, then maybe you aren't playing the right game? Honestly, a lot of people strongly dislike the MMO formula, and it's understandable - the only tangible rewards in sight are better numbers. Not everyone shares the same viewpoint - for a lot of people (myself included), mastering the mechanics of a fight, downing the boss, and moving on to the next difficult encounter is what makes the game fun. The Killmaster 9000 Axe Of Cutting Things Real Good is just a cool side reward. I can't speak for the hardcore PvP players, and from what I hear PvP is quite bad this season unless you happen to be one of the OP classes, so i'll leave that can of worms alone. [QUOTE=zugu;40488313]Raiding has always seemed a waste of time to me. I have friends for whom raiding was a full time job, but without any payment. They used to get up in the middle of the night in order to raid with people from other time zones. They never got enough sleep, they looked like shit, and all they talked about was some new boss / gear / dungeon.[/QUOTE] Most guilds do not play obsessively like that. If you're pushing for world first heroic kills, then yeah, you're probably going to be doing progression mon-fri 6+ hours a night every single week until the boss dies, but that isn't required in the slightest. Most casual guilds probably raid one, maybe two days a week, for a couple hours trying to progress on certain bosses. It isn't a massive time expenditure like most people seem to assume unless you purposely make it one. <Pals For Life> is not Blood Legion or Method. You can just be in a guild with some pals and try once or twice a week to down whatever boss you're stuck on.

[QUOTE=Linda,Octopus;40491827]I dont know about you but the fact that the game is like, what, 10 years old is a good enough reason to not have great graphics, besides, the newer textures ingame are pretty solid.[/QUOTE] Yes but older textures mixed with newer ones don't go well together. At least for me.

[QUOTE=BrainDeath;40491763]i got to level 20 and never logged in again it's a fucking dire game even the graphics are fucking terrible there's really no excuse when you're making that much money[/QUOTE] The low level zones look like dog shit because they're pretty much a decade old. Wrath+, and to a lesser extent BC zones, all look pretty goddamn good in my opinion. Activate a MoP trial and go check out the pandaren starting zone, it's quite pretty. Besides, we've been promised extensive redesigns on race models already - everyone already got exclusive animations for Monks, and I believe models have been leaked of early modifications to the old race models.

[QUOTE=BrainDeath;40491763]i got to level 20 and never logged in again it's a fucking dire game even the graphics are fucking terrible there's really no excuse when you're making that much money[/QUOTE] It's a game from 2004 that's been running on the same engine since launch, what do you really expect? You have no idea how much they've beefed up the actual visuals over that time anyway, and the last 3 expansions have had wonderful graphics compared to the others. They're also taking the time to update all the old player races to the standards of the new races. [editline]1st May 2013[/editline] I'm a vanilla oldie and I'm probably the most casual WoW player in existance. I never raided until MoP, I could never stick with a guild because I'm a monthly on/off player, and I've been around long enough to appreciate and dislike every single change that has gone on in the game. I play WoW for the story (unheard of!) and player interaction. Scenarios are an amazing feature and I love the new content that is being added. WoW is still a great game even after all these years, it might have changed to a lot of people's tastes but it doesn't matter because Blizzard just cannot please everyone. Anytime they add something, the oldies complain even if its what they've been asking for.

I used to enjoy the hell out of this game, but kind of lost all enjoyment towards the end of wotlk, the dungeon finder obliterated the community and the "instancing" of zones destroyed the ability to interact with other people in an open world environment. It's not even an MMO anymore, hasn't been since 2009 Not to mention the removal of talent trees and the possibility of playing with experimental / unique builds, that alone killed most of the fun for me. That new crowd of players that started to roll in around 2010 was also pretty bloodless too, I guess it kind of reflects the sort of person that would enjoy that anti-social, instanced off, dumbed-down butchering of WoW

Honestly, I don't know why this guild even gets attention anymore. These guys bugged Yogg to kill him if I remember correctly and bragged about exploiting it.

[QUOTE=Barbarian887;40494247]I used to enjoy the hell out of this game, but kind of lost all enjoyment towards the end of wotlk, the dungeon finder obliterated the community and the "instancing" of zones destroyed the ability to interact with other people in an open world environment. It's not even an MMO anymore, hasn't been since 2009 Not to mention the removal of talent trees and the possibility of playing with experimental / unique builds, that alone killed most of the fun for me. That new crowd of players that started to roll in around 2010 was also pretty bloodless too, I guess it kind of reflects the sort of person that would enjoy that anti-social, instanced off, dumbed-down butchering of WoW[/QUOTE] I'm not usually the sort of person to say things like this, but who do you think you're kidding here, exactly? So-called 'unique' talent builds haven't been effective since late Vanilla, possibly BC with sl/sl and similar. You had your PvP talents, your PvE talents, and then you could kid yourself into pretending +1 to wand damage while standing on your head was useful. Regarding instancing of zones, it provides a more in-depth manner of storytelling - instead of just wandering across what some other dude did, you actually accomplish your own shit and get to see it reflected in the world. That might be obnoxious for some if it's spread across entire zones, but it isn't. Most of pandaria is not instanced, and besides which, with CRZ I personally see far more people in various areas across the world than i EVER did before MoP. The addition of Dungeon Finder just made it easier to get to a dungeon with my friends. I'm now provided the option to either a) quickly build a group of random people from various realms or b) wait for my friends to hop on and head to whatever dungeon we like. Are you suggesting that it would be more fun to head all the way to Scholomance in the middle of ass-nowhere from Vale of Eternal Blossoms? Are you suggesting that leads to more immersive gameplay? Because i'm going to call bullshit on that - all it leads to is more time spent alt-tabbed out waiting for a flight path to land. Have you even played since Wrath?

[QUOTE=Pbox;40494738]I'm not usually the sort of person to say things like this, but who do you think you're kidding here, exactly? So-called 'unique' talent builds haven't been effective since late Vanilla, possibly BC with sl/sl and similar. You had your PvP talents, your PvE talents, and then you could kid yourself into pretending +1 to wand damage while standing on your head was useful.[/QUOTE] That is the exact kind of thinking that has given rise to the cancer of MMO's. Shit doesn't need to be [I]effective[/I] to be fun. You want to game the system, so that's all you ever see -- a bunch of numbers lining up into a maximum or minimum category. I played WoW back in the early days and again during TBC; I [I]liked[/I] making my own builds and finding ways to make myself useful despite their setbacks. "The illusion of freedom of choice", the common phrase I saw thrown around when dealing with people that can only game the system. It was never an illusion, I made the [I]choice[/I] to make my character how I [I]liked[/I], and if that met being subpar then that's what it meant. And when others were upset over their inevitable nerf I simply kept on doing what I wanted. It wasn't the "subpar" that didn't have a choice -- it was the [I]min/maxers[/I] that never had a choice, the key difference they, to this day, have failed to comprehend. The complete rejection of any playstyle beyond their own numbers game, incomprehensible that others would simply play as they wanted and forgo the numbers. To completely blind oneself to another concept. What's that say about them as people, I have to wonder.

[QUOTE=Axznma;40495039]That is the exact kind of thinking that has given rise to the cancer of MMO's. Shit doesn't need to be [I]effective[/I] to be fun. You want to game the system, so that's all you ever see -- a bunch of numbers lining up into a maximum or minimum category. I played WoW back in the early days and again during TBC; I [I]liked[/I] making my own builds and finding ways to make myself useful despite their setbacks. "The illusion of freedom of choice", the common phrase I saw thrown around when dealing with people that can only game the system. It was never an illusion, I made the [I]choice[/I] to make my character how I [I]liked[/I], and if that met being subpar then that's what it meant. And when others were upset over their inevitable nerf I simply kept on doing what I wanted. It wasn't the "subpar" that didn't have a choice -- it was the [I]min/maxers[/I] that never had a choice, the key difference they, to this day, have failed to comprehend. The complete rejection of any playstyle beyond their own numbers game, incomprehensible that others would simply play as they wanted and forgo the numbers. To completely blind oneself to another concept. What's that say about them as people, I have to wonder.[/QUOTE] If you want to purposely gimp your character and be a special snowflake, then fine by me - but the only thing you're doing is impeding others' enjoyment. You are not helping your group/raid by speccing into better healing as a damage dealing class. You're just succumbing to your masturbatory fantasy of somehow being superior to those who would [i]dare[/i] to try and make their characters effective. You're purposely, and knowingly, doing worse than you could be simply because you're loathe to fit into the system, maaaaaan. You claim that instancing and dungeon finder makes the game more impersonal, but I would propose that it is, instead, people like you, people who play this game as if it were a single-player experience and selfishly impede their own ability in the name of originality, who are killing MMOs. People like you are the same sorts of people who campaign for a return to the perceived difficulty of vanilla and BC, and then turn right around and complain about difficulty in raid encounters, or, even worse, claim the game in its current state to be more grindy than the spectacular grindfest that was Vanilla. I pray I never find you in a dungeon group, because you're the mouthbreathing keyboard-turner who honestly believes the fire gives a haste buff if you stand in it. You're the sort of person I see every AB rezzing and running straight to farm/stables while we need someone to kill a healer at BS. The sort of person who runs flags in EOTS because you think it's more fun, while the opposing team has 3/4 towers. You aren't being unique - you're refusing to accept a superior strategy because you think it makes you a bigger person. You are not a bigger person, you are not standing up to the decay of modern gaming, you're being a self-centered twit.

[QUOTE=Pbox;40494738]I'm not usually the sort of person to say things like this, but who do you think you're kidding here, exactly? So-called 'unique' talent builds haven't been effective since late Vanilla, possibly BC with sl/sl and similar. You had your PvP talents, your PvE talents, and then you could kid yourself into pretending +1 to wand damage while standing on your head was useful. Regarding instancing of zones, it provides a more in-depth manner of storytelling - instead of just wandering across what some other dude did, you actually accomplish your own shit and get to see it reflected in the world. That might be obnoxious for some if it's spread across entire zones, but it isn't. Most of pandaria is not instanced, and besides which, with CRZ I personally see far more people in various areas across the world than i EVER did before MoP. The addition of Dungeon Finder just made it easier to get to a dungeon with my friends. I'm now provided the option to either a) quickly build a group of random people from various realms or b) wait for my friends to hop on and head to whatever dungeon we like. Are you suggesting that it would be more fun to head all the way to Scholomance in the middle of ass-nowhere from Vale of Eternal Blossoms? Are you suggesting that leads to more immersive gameplay? Because i'm going to call bullshit on that - all it leads to is more time spent alt-tabbed out waiting for a flight path to land. Have you even played since Wrath?[/QUOTE] you're wrong prot-arms was one of the most entertaining hybrids I'd ever tried, there was also prot-fury, which could, for a while allowed devastate to strike with both weapons, dealing obscene damage. all kinds of fun shit like that [quote]Are you suggesting that it would be more fun to head all the way to Scholomance in the middle of ass-nowhere from Vale of Eternal Blossoms?[/quote] yes actually it would, I like to feel like I'm immersed in a virtual WORLD, one in which travel is a real and engaging obstacle, it's like saying "why would you play HL2 on foot when you could just noclip through each level" That was another thing that killed the game for me, the globalizing of flying mounts and fucking mage portals, the game can be played from level 10 to level 90 or what ever without ever once leaving Orgrimmar. too much convenience and efficiency trivializes the game and it may as well be a lobby interface in between instances. [editline]1st May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Pbox;40495169]If you want to purposely gimp your character and be a special snowflake, then fine by me - but the only thing you're doing is impeding others' enjoyment. You are not helping your group/raid by speccing into better healing as a damage dealing class. You're just succumbing to your masturbatory fantasy of somehow being superior to those who would [i]dare[/i] to try and make their characters effective. You're purposely, and knowingly, doing worse than you could be simply because you're loathe to fit into the system, maaaaaan. You claim that instancing and dungeon finder makes the game more impersonal, but I would propose that it is, instead, people like you, people who play this game as if it were a single-player experience and selfishly impede their own ability in the name of originality, who are killing MMOs. People like you are the same sorts of people who campaign for a return to the perceived difficulty of vanilla and BC, and then turn right around and complain about difficulty in raid encounters, or, even worse, claim the game in its current state to be more grindy than the spectacular grindfest that was Vanilla. I pray I never find you in a dungeon group, because you're the mouthbreathing keyboard-turner who honestly believes the fire gives a haste buff if you stand in it. You're the sort of person I see every AB rezzing and running straight to farm/stables while we need someone to kill a healer at BS. The sort of person who runs flags in EOTS because you think it's more fun, while the opposing team has 3/4 towers. You aren't being unique - you're refusing to accept a superior strategy because you think it makes you a bigger person. You are not a bigger person, you are not standing up to the decay of modern gaming, you're being a self-centered twit.[/QUOTE] it's kids like you who ruined the game

[QUOTE=Axznma;40495039]That is the exact kind of thinking that has given rise to the cancer of MMO's. Shit doesn't need to be [I]effective[/I] to be fun. You want to game the system, so that's all you ever see -- a bunch of numbers lining up into a maximum or minimum category. I played WoW back in the early days and again during TBC; I [I]liked[/I] making my own builds and finding ways to make myself useful despite their setbacks. "The illusion of freedom of choice", the common phrase I saw thrown around when dealing with people that can only game the system. It was never an illusion, I made the [I]choice[/I] to make my character how I [I]liked[/I], and if that met being subpar then that's what it meant. And when others were upset over their inevitable nerf I simply kept on doing what I wanted. It wasn't the "subpar" that didn't have a choice -- it was the [I]min/maxers[/I] that never had a choice, the key difference they, to this day, have failed to comprehend. The complete rejection of any playstyle beyond their own numbers game, incomprehensible that others would simply play as they wanted and forgo the numbers. To completely blind oneself to another concept. What's that say about them as people, I have to wonder.[/QUOTE] wow is what you want it to be. you aren't forced to do high level content, do raids etc. you don't [i]have[/i] to get better gear or do any 90 content, there are plenty of people on my realm who don't do much aside from old raids. but wow isn't a sandbox game and it's not d&d, it's an mmo. if you don't want to improve your character's stats then you should look at joining a roleplaying server or look at other games that aren't as stat-focused as wow is. [QUOTE=Barbarian887;40495257]yes actually it would, I like to feel like I'm immersed in a virtual WORLD, one in which travel is a real and engaging obstacle, it's like saying "why would you play HL2 on foot when you could just noclip through each level" That was another thing that killed the game for me, the globalizing of flying mounts and fucking mage portals, the game can be played from level 10 to level 90 or what ever without ever once leaving Orgrimmar. too much convenience and efficiency trivializes the game and it may as well be a lobby interface in between instances. [editline]1st May 2013[/editline] it's kids like you who ruined the game[/QUOTE] like it or not, the game is less focused on leveling now. the leveling process is overlooked at this point, the idea is that most players have already been around for a long time and have a 90 they can buy heirlooms on or will do refer a friend so they can level quicker. leveling isn't going to be fun, it's just a process you have to get through. [editline]1st May 2013[/editline] and whether or not half the people in this thread "played wow until level 5 and then realized it was a waste of time" it's still fun for a lot of people and has a thriving community. and as i already said it is what you want it to be - not everyone who raids does so 6 times a week and is looking to get world first. not everyone at level 90 spends half their week grinding for better gear. and furthermore they do it because it's a [i]game[/i] that is [i]fun[/i] for them, whether or not you agree with their taste in games

If the game was nearly the same since vanilla everyone would call it crap and boring and samey. But if they change anything everyone is going to complain how it's not what it used to be, vanilla was best, vanilla master race, ect. I think Blizzard has done pretty damn well keeping their game relevant and as fresh as they can make it.

[QUOTE=Barbarian887;40495257]you're wrong prot-arms was one of the most entertaining hybrids I'd ever tried, there was also prot-fury, which could, for a while allowed devastate to strike with both weapons, dealing obscene damage. all kinds of fun shit like that yes actually it would, I like to feel like I'm immersed in a virtual WORLD, one in which travel is a real and engaging obstacle, it's like saying "why would you play HL2 on foot when you could just noclip through each level" That was another thing that killed the game for me, the globalizing of flying mounts and fucking mage portals, the game can be played from level 10 to level 90 or what ever without ever once leaving Orgrimmar. too much convenience and efficiency trivializes the game and it may as well be a lobby interface in between instances. [editline]1st May 2013[/editline] it's kids like you who ruined the game[/QUOTE] Most of the playerbase does not agree with the idea that it's more fun or immersive to hop on a ground mount and head all the way to Scholo from Stormwind or Orgrimmar. You seem to have a spectacular case of rose-tinted goggles. If you're so infatuated with the idea of spending hours doing nothing but rp walking to Alaska then go hop on a private server. I'm not going to respond to you insinuating i'm a child because I give a shit about the other 24/9/4/2 people in my group because the very idea is absurd.

i had a cute tauren priest character and i walked around in my underwear

[QUOTE=Pbox;40496189]Most of the playerbase does not agree with the idea that it's more fun or immersive to hop on a ground mount and head all the way to Scholo from Stormwind or Orgrimmar. You seem to have a spectacular case of rose-tinted goggles. If you're so infatuated with the idea of spending hours doing nothing but rp walking to Alaska then go hop on a private server. I'm not going to respond to you insinuating i'm a child because I give a shit about the other 24/9/4/2 people in my group because the very idea is absurd.[/QUOTE] obviously, otherwise the devs wouldn't have changed it you're just one of those elitist pricks who whine about everything

[QUOTE=Barbarian887;40497720]obviously, otherwise the devs wouldn't have changed it you're just one of those elitist pricks who whine about everything[/QUOTE] What in the world? You're the one crying bloody murder over the loss of the [i]clearly[/i] more hardcore OLD WoW. Are we reading the same thread?

[QUOTE=Pbox;40495169]If you want to purposely gimp your character and be a special snowflake, then fine by me - but the only thing you're doing is impeding others' enjoyment. You are not helping your group/raid by speccing into better healing as a damage dealing class. You're just succumbing to your masturbatory fantasy of somehow being superior to those who would [I]dare[/I] to try and make their characters effective. You're purposely, and knowingly, doing worse than you could be simply because you're loathe to fit into the system, maaaaaan. You claim that instancing and dungeon finder makes the game more impersonal, but I would propose that it is, instead, people like you, people who play this game as if it were a single-player experience and selfishly impede their own ability in the name of originality, who are killing MMOs. People like you are the same sorts of people who campaign for a return to the perceived difficulty of vanilla and BC, and then turn right around and complain about difficulty in raid encounters, or, even worse, claim the game in its current state to be more grindy than the spectacular grindfest that was Vanilla. I pray I never find you in a dungeon group, because you're the mouthbreathing keyboard-turner who honestly believes the fire gives a haste buff if you stand in it. You're the sort of person I see every AB rezzing and running straight to farm/stables while we need someone to kill a healer at BS. The sort of person who runs flags in EOTS because you think it's more fun, while the opposing team has 3/4 towers. You aren't being unique - you're refusing to accept a superior strategy because you think it makes you a bigger person. You are not a bigger person, you are not standing up to the decay of modern gaming, you're being a self-centered twit.[/QUOTE] Jesus fucking christ, that block of text is everything wrong with that kind of game. The enormous amounts of WoW and MMO jargon in there isn't helping. He went "hey i don't really care about pro-character builds, i just want to enjoy myself" and you screamed "HOW [I]DARE YOU [/I]WHY AREN'T YOU DOING IT THE [I]RIGHT [/I] WAY". Look, my "taking it too seriously" extends to people who ignore objectives in objective based games, which pisses me right the hell off, but having fun is the point of the game. Not being a min-maxer. But you need to shut the fuck up and stop taking it so seriously. You completely missed the point of everything he said. You believe that him not being the min-maxer makes him a self-important douchebag, but you sound like the least fun person to play with I've ever seen.

[QUOTE=Barbarian887;40497720]obviously, otherwise the devs wouldn't have changed it you're just one of those elitist pricks who whine about everything[/QUOTE] relax dude

The things they do, they do seriously, and I respect that. Hell, just take a look at [URL="http://pastebin.com/6sNu31hX"]this health and fitness guide from a guild.[/URL]

Yeah even when this game came out and I was a young teen the idea sounded completely whack, I don't get MMO games. Especially people who get so deep into it

The only MMORPG I liked was SWG, I got to level 42 or so in WoW and realized it wasn't very fun. [editline]2nd May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Trogdon;40498281]Yeah even when this game came out and I was a young teen the idea sounded completely whack, I don't get MMO games. Especially people who get so deep into it[/QUOTE] I think people mostly like MMORPGs because they like the feeling of being in this massive virtual world connected with lots of other people.

I quit World of Warcraft right before Cataclysm came about, I think, and I know I'd never go back. But damn, sometimes I miss it. It felt like WoW, as generic as it was, had this kind of... [i]magic[/i] to it. Somewhere between the dungeons, exploring about, the people, fucking around, and all that, I grew really fond of it, and I guess I still am. Maybe I'm just looking at it through rose-tinted goggles. But still, I think it'd be fun to play through the whole game one last time from the ground up. Go through all those dungeons again, relive all those memories starting from vanilla, no heirlooms, no upper-level shit, just linear progression from expansion to expansion.

[QUOTE=Fhenexx;40498338]I quit World of Warcraft right before Cataclysm came about, I think, and I know I'd never go back. But damn, sometimes I miss it. It felt like WoW, as generic as it was, had this kind of... [i]magic[/i] to it. Somewhere between the dungeons, exploring about, the people, fucking around, and all that, I grew really fond of it, and I guess I still am. Maybe I'm just looking at it through rose-tinted goggles. But still, I think it'd be fun to play through the whole game one last time from the ground up. Go through all those dungeons again, relive all those memories starting from vanilla, no heirlooms, no upper-level shit, just linear progression from expansion to expansion.[/QUOTE] Nobody can afford wow on a student budget.

[QUOTE=Pbox;40497868]What in the world? You're the one crying bloody murder over the loss of the [i]clearly[/i] more hardcore OLD WoW. Are we reading the same thread?[/QUOTE] When the game was less trivial I never complained about travel, finding groups for instances or anything like that. I'm sure you did though, Mr. Efficiency. It's supposed to be an MMORPG, it's supposed to feel massive, vast, immersive etc. Permanent city Portals and 310% flying mounts snuffed that part right out. It's also supposed to be played along side thousands of people, now you sit in a city and wait for a queue to teleport you to random anonymous drone-like people who don't say anything (the only ones that still play).

[QUOTE=Barbarian887;40498458] It's also supposed to be played along side thousands of people, now you sit in a city and wait for a queue to teleport you to random anonymous drone-like people who don't say anything (the only ones that still play).[/QUOTE] better than sitting in a city, waiting for hours to gather a group, waiting till they actually get to the dungeon, waiting more because they have the wrong gear, and then finally doing one dungeon and seeing the boss drop gear that no-one has any use for

I'm glad that I have given up the standard grind-based MMORPG. I only hope more people do and that these things start to die out.

[QUOTE=thisispain;40498691]better than sitting in a city, waiting for hours to gather a group, waiting till they actually get to the dungeon, waiting more because they have the wrong gear, and then finally doing one dungeon and seeing the boss drop gear that no-one has any use for[/QUOTE] But that's how I made a lot of friends :-(

[QUOTE=Barbarian887;40498752]But that's how I made a lot of friends :-([/QUOTE] but when you just want to gear up and get through three different expansions worth of content it stops being fun

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;40498750]I'm glad that I have given up the standard grind-based MMORPG. I only hope more people do and that these things start to die out.[/QUOTE] I really want MMOs to evolve. They hold so much potential but they've been stuck in the same formula for ages. We need a sandbox MMO like EVE, but more accessible. Something that attracts a wide audience, but isn't a theme park or grindfest.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;40498828]WoW is dying out, albeit slowly, it lost a quarter of it's players over the course of two years (Cataclysm), and it's been in decline ever since.[/QUOTE] It gained a million or more with MOP. It's down from it's all time high but it's fluctuating rather than declining. Even if it was, 9-10 million is a lot of people to work through.