At least the Nazis are depicted as efficient and sly. The summary executions in this game are just pointless and dumb. No matter how evil they were, I doubt Russian commanders were stupid enough to waste men (and ammo) just for the sake of it.
[QUOTE=laserguided;41743337]No they weren't, Relic are just a bunch of idiots.[/QUOTE]
I rather live in Nazi Germany then Soviet Union.
Not that either are a good choice ofcourse.
And it just doesn't seem right that you can kill your own civilians in this game whereas in the first game, there's none to be seen during the entire campaign. I mean that's fair enough, but there were French civilian casualties too during that part of the war, particularly during Allied bombings.
[editline]7th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tudd;41743391]I rather live in Nazi Germany then Soviet Union.
Not that either are a good choice ofcourse.[/QUOTE]
Not with the whole country getting pounded to hell and back you wouldn't.
[QUOTE=Tudd;41743391]I rather live in Nazi Germany then Soviet Union.
Not that either are a good choice ofcourse.[/QUOTE]
the entire thing kinda depends on who you are and all that
[QUOTE=Araknid;41743493]the entire thing kinda depends on who you are and all that[/QUOTE]
Just going to say the life of a average Soviet does not sound at all thrilling.
Atleast the living conditions in Germany were pretty normal unless you got the Gestapo up your ass, or if you happen to live on the east side of Berlin.
[QUOTE=Tudd;41743521]Just going to say the life of a average Soviet does not sound at all thrilling.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps that's because they didn't pillage the whole half of fucking Europe. It's easy to have better living condition when you stole most of your neighbours' resources.
[QUOTE=_Axel;41743543]Perhaps that's because they didn't pillage the whole half of fucking Europe. It's easy to have better living condition when you stole most of your neighbours' resources.[/QUOTE]
And then the Soviet Union did the same thing back.
And it was still a shit hole.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;41740333]The thing I don't understand is why did they focus so much on the Russians being incompetent or downright evil on the game? I mean you have to burn your own soldiers in one mission for no reason, you send unarmed troops into machinegun fire in the hopes that a couple will get through.
I'm not saying the Soviets didn't do fucked up shit, but the game is called Company of Heroes, not Company of Incompetent Mass Murderers. The first game didn't focus on Americans killing unarmed Germans or soldiers boing insane from being forced to run into machinegun fire and mortar shelling.[/QUOTE]
To be honest, I think this is the real point of this whole problem. The developers wanted to try to show desperation of war, but have simply went off too far to the deep end of Cartoonish Commie Red Tactics of Manspam™.
[editline]7th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tudd;41743391]I rather live in Nazi Germany then Soviet Union.
Not that either are a good choice ofcourse.[/QUOTE]
I'd point out the Hollocaust, but you'd just start throwing Holodomor and other events alike.
[QUOTE=_Axel;41743543]Perhaps that's because they didn't pillage the whole half of fucking Europe. It's easy to have better living condition when you stole most of your neighbours' resources.[/QUOTE]
Uhhhh.
You mean when they stole all of Ukraine's harvest and put the entire country into a famine to the point where parents where boiling and eating their children?
[QUOTE=gufu;41743561]
I'd point out the Hollocaust, but you'd just start throwing Holodomor and other events alike.[/QUOTE]
Hey man, both sides were pretty terrible, i'm not arguing that.
I'm just saying the average life of German was significantly better then a peasant in the Soviet Union.
That's ofcourse if you are part of the privileged master race.
[QUOTE=Tudd;41743547]And then the Soviet Union did the same thing back.
And it was still a shit hole.[/QUOTE]
That was after the war too, I don't think the amount of riches were comparable, especially since it was mostly about eastern countries.
[QUOTE=_Axel;41743596]That was after the war too, I don't think the amount of riches were comparable, especially since it was mostly about eastern countries.[/QUOTE]
You know Germany wasn't exactly that bad off before 1939 aswell right?
Still don't see what it has to do with the point. Living conditions have nothing to do with the fact Russian officials are depicted as stupid and pointlessly evil. I can see them being evil, of course, but they should be somewhat efficient, being general and commanders.
[QUOTE=_Axel;41743596]That was after the war too, I don't think the amount of riches were comparable, especially since it was mostly about eastern countries.[/QUOTE]
The Holodomor was pre-WW2.
[QUOTE=_Axel;41743628]Still don't see what it has to do with the point. Living conditions have nothing to do with the fact Russian officials are depicted as stupid and pointlessly evil. I can see them being evil, of course, but they should be somewhat efficient, being general and commanders.[/QUOTE]
Russian commanders weren't exactly the most efficient bunch. Ofcourse Purges didn't help with that, but the Winter War, Operation Barbarossa, and early battle for Moscow just shows how easy it was to exploit Russian tactics till late 1942. Even after that year, Soviet losses were usually higher then the smaller forces it faced for a good reason.
Now ofcourse not every unit was a penal battalion running straight into MG nests, but its a fucking video game.
And it's a RTS game campaign, the genre is not exactly known for great stories and polish.
[QUOTE=laserguided;41743337]No they weren't, Relic are just a bunch of idiots.[/QUOTE]
Do you want me to make a list of Soviet War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity in general?
Relic should've decided to make German campaign instead of Soviet one. It goes without sayng that they souldn't have tried to bring real history in their games, after all, we play RTS for warfare, not for deep emotional catharsis. Mowing down thousands of faceless ruskies, like some other games do, instead of trying to depict something realistic, and failing at it. CoH2 campaign is ridiculous, has nothing in common with "history", filled with tropes and stupid drama. Not going to go deep into "were soviets bad or good" - no one was good in that war, - but relic writers are [b]bad[/b].
Because playing on one side you feel deep disgust and disdain for, is not that great for player's opinion of the game.
Main problem with CoH2 is sudden change of attitude, which allows people to cry "agenda". CoH1 - everyone's a hero, Germans, including "Panzer Lehr" SS unit (which is conveniently not called that way), US, UK - all heroes, no one commits war crimes - indeed, there were no such concepts in CoH1... And then suddenly, in sequel Russians doing horrible stuff all over the place. This is what inspires debates about whether or not Relic was pushing agenda. Like, Oh my god, why couldn't brave heroes of the first game just be friends and concentrate on the real bad guys.
This is indeed an unfortunate implication transition between CoH and it's sequel has.
[QUOTE=Griffster26;41744808]Do you want me to make a list of Soviet War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity in general?[/QUOTE]
[quote]During the entire 1921-53 period, some 4.1mn people were condemned for counter-revolutionary activities, of them 0.8mn to death and 1.1mn of whom died in camps and prisons. After adding the 3.5-5.0mn excess deaths from the collectivization famines, it is hard to see how Stalin could have been responsible for more than ten million deaths at the absolute maximum. Figures in the tens of millions have no basis in physical evidence or demographic plausibility.
Even in just the occupied territories of the USSR, there were 13.7mn deaths due to Nazi reprisals, labor requisitioning and famine. Even excluding the vast war casualties, the deaths of about 20mn Slav civilians, 6mn Jews, 3-4mn Soviet POWs and up to a million Roma can be attributed to the Nazis during the far shorter period 1941-45. If Nazi plans had come to fruition, then all the Slavs of eastern Europe would have been exterminated, helotized or driven into Siberian exile. As such, it is hard to see how the latter could be construed as being worse.[/quote]
The Soviets were the lesser of two evils.
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;41736039]A little bit, yeah. Depends on the person and how much they give a shit that the story that (as far as I know) didn't claim to be 100% accurate wasn't 100% accurate.
Are the Russians within their right to get all up in a tiff? Of course. If someone made a WW1 game and all the Canadian troops ate the flesh of their enemies or some shit we'd be a little pissed too but at the end of the day so long as they didn't claim that it is 100% accurate then there isn't [I]really[/I] a big issue.
[editline]6th August 2013[/editline]
"Real" in this context is basically just a buzz word. Right under that it says "inspired by" which means that their story was inspired by the stories of the people they talked to.
To me those are the key words: inspired by[/QUOTE]
uses the term 'real' twice
[B]real story[/B]
[B]real reflection[/B]
game is called company of heroes
company of heroes 1 is filled with heroism on the part of the americans, showing how they're liberators against a german menace
company of heroes 2 is filled with the russians doing bad shit, even though they lost 22, to 30 [B]MILLION[/B] people and probably ended up winning the war
it belittles the sacrifice of the soviet civilian and soviet soldier to say that they spent most of their time killing their own men
why didn't they show any of the american/british war crimes in CoH1?
because they're western devs
[editline]7th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sir_takeslot;41743590]Uhhhh.
You mean when they stole all of Ukraine's harvest and put the entire country into a famine to the point where parents where boiling and eating their children?[/QUOTE]
don't forget they also massacred 22,000 polish officers in the Katyn forest
don't think I'm some sort of russian apologists, having polish heritage myself I'm not exactly a fan, but pin them on shit that actually happened, like the katyn forest massacre
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;41746204]uses the term 'real' twice
[B]real story[/B]
[B]real reflection[/B]
game is called company of heroes
company of heroes 1 is filled with heroism on the part of the americans, showing how they're liberators against a german menace
company of heroes 2 is filled with the russians doing bad shit, even though they lost 22, to 30 [B]MILLION[/B] people and probably ended up winning the war
it belittles the sacrifice of the soviet civilian and soviet soldier to say that they spent most of their time killing their own men
why didn't they show any of the american/british war crimes in CoH1?
because they're western devs
[editline]7th August 2013[/editline]
don't forget they also massacred 22,000 polish officers in the Katyn forest
don't think I'm some sort of russian apologists, having polish heritage myself I'm not exactly a fan, but pin them on shit that actually happened[/QUOTE]
They didn't show the Germans committing any war crimes either.
[editline]7th August 2013[/editline]
in COH1 that is.
^^
Because "Company of [b]heroes[/b]"
As in, fuck politics, we will concentrate on heroism and what is actually good in history of warfare, and depict warfare as fun for the sake of gameplay.
Instead, in sequel we have "Company of [b]a hero[/b]". Who is only a hero because he is everything opposite of what his country would think heroism is. And all actual heroes in the game got promptly executed in the most idiotic ways for the sake of political statement, "communists = bad and worse than nazi". Germans in Opposing Fronts were concerned with fate of civillian population. Russians in CoH2 go out of their way to kill their own population.
I can only hope Relic will drop this stuff on future ToW missions releases. Because then they will have to go neck-deep in it. Russians really did outdo nazis in the field of cruelty towards civillian population.
[QUOTE=Melnek;41745118]The Soviets were the lesser of two evils.[/QUOTE]
No, No they weren't.
I'd also like to point out, when they captured Berlin, they rounded everyone up who had a uniform, everything from soldiers and police, to firefighters, trolley workers and mailmen and sent them off to labor camps.
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;41746270]They didn't show the Germans committing any war crimes either.
[editline]7th August 2013[/editline]
in COH1 that is.[/QUOTE]
I think the only thing in CoH1 that was remotely evil was the German Officer, who threatened to shoot people as saboteurs when you ordered him to watch a building.
[QUOTE=Sir_takeslot;41747940]No, No they weren't.
I'd also like to point out, when they captured Berlin, they rounded everyone up who had a uniform, everything from soldiers and police, to firefighters, trolley workers and mailmen and sent them off to labor camps.[/QUOTE]
I think we could do this dick measuring contest for ages. It wouldn't serve any more purpose than drifting away from the matter at hand.
The contrast between CoH 1 and the second one is rather outstanding. Does that weird bias remain in free play ?
[QUOTE=gudman;41747909]
Because "Company of [b]heroes[/b]"[/QUOTE]
I think honestly, this is the best view on it. It's not supposed to be "Company of Depressing War Crimes", instead, it's supposed to be a Band of Brothers/Saving Private Ryan "Man we gotta stop them Germans hooah/Komrad we must do it for the motherland", not "Oh woe is me I'm the only person who isn't morally corrupt"
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;41753195]I think honestly, this is the best view on it. It's not supposed to be "Company of Depressing War Crimes", instead, it's supposed to be a Band of Brothers/Saving Private Ryan "Man we gotta stop them Germans hooah/Komrad we must do it for the motherland", not "Oh woe is me I'm the only person who isn't morally corrupt"[/QUOTE]
Company of Spec Ops: The Line Sold Really Well
[QUOTE=_Axel;41749655]I think we could do this dick measuring contest for ages. It wouldn't serve any more purpose than drifting away from the matter at hand.
The contrast between CoH 1 and the second one is rather outstanding. Does that weird bias remain in free play ?[/QUOTE]
No, because it's skirmish and online. There is no narrative in either of those modes.
[QUOTE=gudman;41744884]Relic should've decided to make German campaign instead of Soviet one. It goes without sayng that they souldn't have tried to bring real history in their games, after all, we play RTS for warfare, not for deep emotional catharsis. Mowing down thousands of faceless ruskies, like some other games do, instead of trying to depict something realistic, and failing at it. CoH2 campaign is ridiculous, has nothing in common with "history", filled with tropes and stupid drama. Not going to go deep into "were soviets bad or good" - no one was good in that war, - but relic writers are [b]bad[/b].
Because playing on one side you feel deep disgust and disdain for, is not that great for player's opinion of the game.
Main problem with CoH2 is sudden change of attitude, which allows people to cry "agenda". CoH1 - everyone's a hero, Germans, including [B]"Panzer Lehr" SS unit[/B] (which is conveniently not called that way), US, UK - all heroes, no one commits war crimes - indeed, there were no such concepts in CoH1... And then suddenly, in sequel Russians doing horrible stuff all over the place. This is what inspires debates about whether or not Relic was pushing agenda. Like, Oh my god, why couldn't brave heroes of the first game just be friends and concentrate on the real bad guys.
This is indeed an unfortunate implication transition between CoH and it's sequel has.[/QUOTE]
Sorry for the historical shit, but the Panzer Lehr division wasn't an SS unit nor was it ever in the Netherlands. They just created a fictional unit and drew inspiration from the Panzer Lehr division.
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;41759304]Sorry for the historical shit, but the Panzer Lehr division wasn't an SS unit nor was it ever in the Netherlands. They just created a fictional unit and drew inspiration from the Panzer Lehr division.[/QUOTE]
I know that, I'm not a moron. Sorry for the misconception.
It's a diffirent matter. Panzer Elite faction was created with Waffen SS in mind (look at their infantry), so singleplayer campaign that follows *fictional* "panzergruppe" (now I remember, it wasn't called Lehr, it was some other name which I forgot), follows fictional Waffen SS detachment that isn't called that. Which is what I meant originally, even when Relic clearly meant Waffen SS detachment, they evade any association.
And also, I've just looked it up. Panzer Lehr actually [b]was[/b] partly an SS detachment.
[QUOTE=gudman;41759433]I know that, I'm not a moron. Sorry for the misconception.
It's a diffirent matter. Panzer Elite faction was created with Waffen SS in mind (look at their infantry), so singleplayer campaign that follows *fictional* "panzergruppe" (now I remember, it wasn't called Lehr, it was some other name which I forgot), follows fictional Waffen SS detachment that isn't called that. Which is what I meant originally, even when Relic clearly meant Waffen SS detachment, they evade any association.
And also, I've just looked it up. Panzer Lehr actually [b]was[/b] partly an SS detachment.[/QUOTE]
The group you play as in the game is called Kampfgruppe Lehr. The Panzer Lehr division was a Wehrmacht division though.
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