Blueprint system suggestion - New Vegas

hello. long-time rust owner and player here. i’ve actually adopted a new account because i forgot my old credentials. anyways, i have taken a step back from the game. i decided that i did not want to burn myself out before the game was actually nearing completion. i took my leave of absence around the time that the hacker scourge took place (before experimental.)

however, i have followed the game closely since then. i have seen gary’s idea that a blueprint system would be implemented (one in which blueprints would be made global and sold on the steam store.) i also noted the reasoning: that new players on servers would be incapable of establishing themselves.

however, i fail to understand this logic. it is not impossible at all to accumulate wealth in a populated server and challenge established players. in fact, one could argue that a majority of the fun in the game revolves around the danger of dealing with the better equipped, or avoiding them long enough/living in hiding for enough time to be able to rise up and challenge them. as a player with a full time job, i found a lot of difficulty against all-dayers (people who would sit in game all day and play, obviously.) however, i got a lot of enjoyment out of being able to defeat them even with my considerable lack of play time. simply put, i was able to succeed just as well as them because i was a better player than them. it does take a lot of skill and knowledge to get good and become successful at rust–to be stealthy and careful, to acquire wealth in spite of the constant danger and player threat. why take that element out of the game? why let people buy their ways to equality? in doing so you also devalue the skilled players.

before i get tl;dr, my suggestion is to add a space of neutrality, perhaps one which is guarded by unbeatable npc’s. you draw your weapon? you die almost instantaneously. make it so that players can only spend a certain amount of time here, or so it is only open in the daytime (at night you must leave. obviously to avoid people camping inside.) this could be an in-server “marketplace” where new players could congregate to sell resources for blueprints, and where all players in-game could go to trade or socialize. i’ve seen people argue that a marketplace is needed because trading will never happen due to KOS. but most disagree with the marketplace, it seems. so why not make it a mechanic that exists in-game? i guarantee that in almost every server, a meta game would develop around such a zone. people would run convoys, work as hired escorts, travel to trade and work to defend/rob those exiting the trade zone.

just a thought.

Because Rust is about players solving solutions themselves, not the game providing predesigned, enforced-by-code-and-invincible-NPC solutions. Enforced neutrality zones don’t belong in Rust. Want a neutrality zone? Police it yourself, kill violators, and prohibit offenders from entering the neutral zone.

Create your own server meta. Rust is about player freedom, and forcing neutral zones to exist is not freedom.

You’re right. This has been said over and over, since the beginning of development.

This is why there shouldn’t be steam marketplace.

interesting perspective when the developer of the game himself is arguing for a concept on the basis that such a meta would, in fact, never be implemented by the players themselves.

it seems like he would be more informed regarding the game than you, and ultimately i do not see you as a know-all on what rust is actually about. rust is a game that had a stalwart core and has been revamped, and it is currently having its foundation molded.

remember, your opinions aren’t fact. they’re just opinions (so please don’t push them as fact.)

I think you should get that thought out of your head. Safezones has no place in rust. The whole point of rust is to collect your own shit and steal others peoples shit. Tradeing would have no risk and people would just go to the safezones instead of making a risky trade with a stranger or taking the risk to raid someone. Not knowing who u can trust is a big part of rust, socializing and tradeing in a safezone would destroy the whole metagame.

Read this and tell me what garry thinks about structured safe zones.

2013? the game was in an entirely different state at this point and time. we have had plenty of time to see how emergent gameplay in rust… well, has emerged. the game largely devolved into a kos environment. players group up surely, but a lot of gary’s expectations regarding society in-game have never been realized. not to say that i don’t have fun with rust, because i do. i love the emergent gameplay.

People have asked whether we’re going to be on Steam-come on, in this article we didn’t even know there would be a steam release. now we’re discussing marketplace items. obviously things have shifted quite a bit. let’s not use outdated posh as evidence. there’s also no specific commentary regarding an idea such as this, which would exist within the emergent world and only serve to produce more emergent gameplay surrounding it (like a fountain of… emergence.)

[editline]20th October 2014[/editline]

how? you would still encounter players in raids, collecting resources, traveling, and the zone would act just like a big rad, except it would inspire more mechanics. the social study has been done, and new players have suffered (as gary has suggested,) so i would prefer an in-game marketplace to an out of game marketplace. (such a thing could never be instituted by players.)

Do you realize that they haven’t even begun to implement half of the shit he’s talking about here? The game hasn’t even gotten started on seeing if garry’s vision will hold true.

It’s been a KOSfest because there’s been nothing to do. This will change as there are things to do. Adding mandated safe zones you can hide in and not be killed in doesn’t line up with garry’s published views on Rust and I invite you to prove me wrong with a link to a comment by the man himself, on FP, the Playrust devblog, Twitter, Reddit, Trello, his blog, or wherever else it was posted.

You’re an impatient one, bombadillo.

I’m not sure that I agree with the marketplace blueprint system, but I’ll admit that there have to be some things provided by the system, or else we’d just be handed the Unity development environment and before you could join a server you’d need to craft your own GUI. I don’t think anyone wants Rust to be completely empty of artificial structure. garry’s view is just much much more scaled back than the average fps.

But, better to experiment now, early on. If marketplace blueprints turn out to be a terrible idea, great, they’ll be shot into space long before the game’s Early Access banner comes off. If player-exchangeable blueprints turn out to be a good idea, there will need to be something in the system mediating their transfer unless it’s strictly limited to the one server they’re found on as in legacy.

Note that the only thing that’s getting this structure is the Steam marketplace item system, because it needs it. You’d still be throwing shit on the ground in-game to trade the item the blueprint creates, just as risky as always.

[editline]20th October 2014[/editline]

Are you willing to make a Toxx on this statement? Are you that sure of yourself?

Reductio ad absurdum? I expected better from you Elix.

Anyway, anything anyone can think of that could use the Steam marketplace, would be better handled in game.

i don’t disagree with you regarding gary’s views, but i do believe that the game is evolving, and that it has become something more than just gary’s vision. which is essentially a good thing (the community should be involved in development.) rust is much like a favorite tv show of mine. it is written and worked on as it goes along, perhaps at its own expense. in this sense i do believe that nothing is solid. however we are talking about implementing something new and contested, so why not talk about alternative systems? being able to purchase blueprints also damages emergent gameplay, after all, considering that it cuts a portion of the gameplay out completely.

as far as making a toxx goes, no, but i’m quite certain that something with the depth gary suggested would never be realized in rust as we know it.

Yea those are great in DayZ
I just love watching people do their trades… and than PLOW right in the face with my sniper rifle. It’s a lovely place to get many laughs.

Because its a survival game and it should always be risk involved in whatever you do. A safezone wouldnt act like big rad, cus you are in no danger when u enter it. You dont have to care about whether u think the guy is trying kill u or not. The constant risk and paranoia of rust is a big part of what makes rust what it is for most people, if u add a safezone then whats the point of ever interacting with other players outside it? How boring would it be to see X amount of players just sitting in that zone tradeing safely whole day and Y amount of ppl camping them outside?

While I agree blueprints on steam store isnt the right way, this certainly isnt either.

It was a silly exaggeration, and not one that I’m using to argue very strongly. It’s a fairly offtopic line of discussion anyway.

withnail, it comes down to this: You either do, or do not, agree with garry’s idea that cosmetic variants of blueprints should be Steam inventory items that follow the player from server to server.

I’m taking a wait-and-see approach, and this is the phase to experiment with risky things like this.

I don’t think this is a good thing. The Minecraft community took development of Minecraft away from Notch by modding the balls off of it and making core updates nearly redundant and always disappointing. And now Notch has sold off the entire company and gotten out of Minecraft because he didn’t want to bear responsibility for that community.

Would you mind explaining how the Steam Marketplace has destroyed TF2’s item-for-item trading mechanic? It’s not an “in-game” trading system, but an in-game BP trade in Rust is roughly equivalent to a player-to-player trade in TF2 (TF2 has no steal-your-shit risk to its trades aside from being scammed in the trade window itself, and you can invite people to trade within servers).

Now, I’m specifically referring to the Steam Marketplace for item sales. Mann Co. store-bought items become tradeable (but not marketable)after a few days, but that also adds a bunch of factors that complicate the comparison and don’t match anything in Rust.

From what I understand, the challenge or problem the blueprint idea is supposed to address is server wipes but you have to find the game print in order to use the global print, so this does nothing to solve server wipes. When the server wipes, you will still be naked, holding nothing but a rock. I’m trying to understand the functional purpose of this, the only one I can come up with is a way to create a revnue stream. I’m not opposed to this but I’m exteremely leary.

It seems that when the server wipes you will loose all the core blueprints that you have on that server but you will keep all the cosmetic blueprints so once you get again the core blueprints, by playing, you will be able to craft the cosmetic blueprints that you own in steam. So you wont loose your personal cosmetic equipment, that will be saved from wipes, it brings some customization aspects.

ya, think this is what I said. When speaking of game play and server wipes, this accomplishes practically nothing. What is does accomplish is, it give players the global and arbitary ability to customize, at a cost, which is kind of cool, although I’m still leary of content purchases because buissnesses will find ways to maximize revenue and that can lead to some bad outcomes. If this is what gary intent is, he is doing an exteremely poor job of explaining it, such as comparing it to a CCG (which base their entire revenue model on pay to win) and talking about weapons (that have practical purpose), jigged stats, etc.

As long as it is purely cosmetic, and there are no buffs on anything or base guns etc then I’m for it 100%. The minute it involves anything more than that I’d be against it. Blueprint hunting in game was one of the biggest motivators in legacy.

I agree we’ll have to wait and see.

One more note, I do not think the community has to worry about Gary as much as the guy after him. Say Rust becomes a huge sucess and has something like 10 million active users consistantly, something like WOW, which I think it will, other gaming companies are going to notice this…someone seeing the ability to cash in on the “pay to win model” and offers Gary 100 million for the rights, that’s who you have to worry about. That’s the person/company who will make it “pay to win” but I guess that could happen whether or not Gary implements this or not. I’m also not terribly convinced that Gary would not do this either, eventually, as the prospects of making a shit ton of money will always be there, if Rust is sucessful.

Except it does, in a sense.

Think about it. You and your group decide on a particular uniform for your group. Say, the red hoodie with no pants and the frog boots (yes this is stupid, but let’s assume you’d pick something better when more customization options come out). Let’s assume that both the red hoodie and the frog boots are cosmetic variants of generic basic shirt and shoes items that you can craft out of the base blueprints.

Getting generic shirt and shoes blueprints should be fairly easy (one would hope), so it shouldn’t take too long for members of your group to get the materials after joining a new server (but they still need to do this, it’s not just automatically provided to them). Then, they can craft the boots and hoodie, instead of the generic shirt and shoes, and now your group can tell themselves apart from randoms on the server.

The difficulty in achieving this scenario depends on how hard, in general, they make blueprints and materials to get, and how far up the tech tree you base your uniform (e.g. uniforms using kevlar as opposed to a hoodie will be harder to get). Server wipes, you can get your uniform back together fairly quickly if you chose cheap gear.

[editline]20th October 2014[/editline]

Garry’s Mod has been supported on Steam for about a decade. Facepunch’s got no reason to sell out.

P.S., $100 million? Rust has already made Facepunch $30 million and it’s not even finished. The buyout would have to be really huge, and Rust would need to be overwhelmingly popular.

Somehow I think you are intentionally missing my point or just not getting it. The justification used for this idea was to help with server wipes. I’m being crtical of the justifiation as it does not change the impact of server wipes in a broad and practical sense. Can it assit in a narrow and limited way such as the way you described, yes, I guess so but I think its kind of disingenious to think Gary was talking about these narrow circumstances. You still have to find the sister blueprint, making the gameplay the exactly the same after the wipe. Add in the CCG elements he dicussed, the jigged stats and weapons, its safe to assume this was not entirely concieved as a comestics only feature which leads us down the path of what exactly else are they going to do this with…and my concern with the long-term implications of buying stuff.

[editline]20th October 2014[/editline]

It was an arbitary number with no real thought put behind it other than to make a point. It could be 1 billion. Garysmod is a popular but its niche, I’ve gamed for over 15-20 years (as an adult, not die hard or in-depth knowldge but…) and have never heard of it, till I came here.

It’s naive to think facepunch has no reason to sell out…in fact, it would be damn right stupid not to entertain the idea if the price is right.