Discussion about OpenSource GameMode

Pour la version française elle ce trouve en bas.

ENGLISH VERSION :

Hello

I would like to open a discussion about S&box and OpenSource system. This post is not intended to provoke, insult or even order a change to this system, it is just a simple discussion to express my opinion on this game.

S&Box

The game is promising. New engine, new features, new menu, a new game! I know that this is not Garry’s Mod 2, it’s a totally different game. However, I wonder about the future of this game and its potential in the next 10 years.

I would like to compare this game to Garry’s Mod on what made Gmod so successful and why S&Box might take example of some aspects. First and foremost, two major questions must be answered.

How has Gmod is a successful game since 15 years?

Why do people still continue to create content and keep this game alive?

The answer is simple, because people are making money and therefore continue to create content. But how does this system work? The Gmod system is simple: Devs make a GameMode which is based on an economical system

Developer → GameMode → Money → GameMode → etc…

All servers have this idea in mind, create a server for a community but in return earn money to pay the server and continue to be motivated to improve the gamemode. Currently the system is no different with S&box, according to Garry developers will be able to monetize their content.

However, one thing is totally different. What makes Gmod great is the independence and the privilege of having its own gamemode, of not having a competitor who copies your gamemode. Take the biggest DarkRp servers from gmod, almost all of them have their own gamemode, which makes the best servers unique and therefore pushes developers to do better or even get into a server project.

S&box has a big problem, the gamemodes will be opensource, which means that everyone will have the privilege of your gamemode and therefore can create a server identical to yours. Which begs the question: How will servers / communities handle VIPs?

Why a player want to take a VIP on one X server when they can have the same content for free on another Y server? Indeed as I said most developers are motivated by money and if money goes away, that leads to the downfall a model that works exceptionally well.

S&Box has an OpenSource model but I think this system may scare away the majority of developers for this game. Why take time, months or even years to end up not feeling “unique”?

I know S&Box is not GMOD, but let’s be honest, GMOD still exists because of its business model is only because of that. The power of diversity in gamemodes is money, and money motivates to create gamemodes. Right now I don’t think S&Box will really motivate developers to make a game as popular as GMOD. By being on French Discord, the majority is clear. If there is no “server side” there is no point because everyone can have your gamemode and therefore the same server as you.

I also want to look at what’s going on today, thousands of keys for no gamemode, why don’t people create gamemodes? That’s a question to ask.

S&Box should have a “private” gamemode system that would be unique to each contributor its would be like on GMOD, each server have unique gamemode with no copying possible. I hope the majority will say he is ok with me. However S&Box is not GMOD and the success of the game depends only on a man. @Garry.

FRENCH VERSION :

Bonjour,

Je souhaite ouvrir une discussion sur S&box et son système d’OpenSource. Ce poste n’a aucune vocation à provoquer, insulter ou même ordonner un changement de ce système, ce n’est qu’une simple discussion pour exprimer mon point de vue sur ce jeu.

S&Box

Le jeu est prometteur. Nouveau moteur, nouvelles fonctionnalités, nouveau menu, un jeu neuf ! Je sais très bien que ce n’est pas Garry’s Mod 2, c’est d’ailleurs un jeu totalement différent. Cependant, je m’interroge sur l’avenir de ce jeu et son potentiel dans les 10 prochaines années

Je souhaiterai comparer ce jeu à Garry’s Mod sur ce qui a fait le succès de Gmod et pourquoi S&Box pourrait prendre exemple sur certain de ces aspects. Il faut avant tout répondre à deux questions majeures.

Comment Gmod est-il resté depuis maintenant 15 ans un jeu à succès ?

Pourquoi les gens continuent encore de créer du contenu et permet de faire vivre ce jeu ?

La réponse est simple, car les gens gagnent de l’argent et donc, continuent à créer du contenu. Mais comment marche ce système ? Le système de Gmod est simple : Des Devs font un GameMode qui est basé sur un système économique

Développeur → GameMode → Argent → GameMode → etc…

Tous les serveurs on cette idée en tête, créer un serveur pour une communauté mais en retour gagner de l’agent pour payer le serveur et continuer à être motivé pour améliorer le gamemode. Actuellement le système ne diffère pas de S&box, d’après Garry les développeurs pourront monétiser leur contenu.

Cependant, une chose diffère totalement. Ce qui fait la grande force de Gmod c’est l’indépendance et le privilège d’avoir son gamemode seul, de ne pas avoir de concurrent qui copie tout votre gamemode. Prenons les plus grands serveur DarkRp de gmod, ils ont presque tous, leur propre gamemode, ce qui fait qui rend les meilleurs serveurs uniques et qui poussent donc les développeurs à faire mieux ou même à se lancer dans un projet de serveur.

S&box a donc un gros souci, les gamemodes seront opensource, ce qui veut dire que tout le monde aura le privilège de votre gamemode et donc pourras créer un serveur identique au votre. Ce qui pose la question suivante : Comment les serveurs/communautés vont-ils gérer les VIP ?

Pourquoi un joueur voudra prendre un VIP sur un serveur X alors qu’il aura la possibilité d’avoir le même contenu mais gratuit sur un autre serveur Y ? En effet comme je l’ai dit la plupart des développeurs sont motivé par l’argent et si cette dernière disparaît, cela entraine la chute d’un modèle qui marche exceptionnellement bien.

S&Box à un modèle d’OpenSource mais je pense que ce système risque de faire fuir la majorité des développeurs pour ce jeu. Pourquoi prendre du temps, des mois voir des années pour au final ne pas se sentir ‘unique’ ?

Je sais que S&Box n’est pas GMOD, mais soyons honnête, GMOD existe encore grâce à sont modèle économique est seulement grâce à ça. La puissance de la diversité des gamemodes et l’argent et l’argent motive à créer des gamemodes. Actuellement je ne pense pas que S&Box va réellement motiver des développeurs à créer un jeu aussi populaire que GMOD. En étant sur des Discord Français, la majorité est clair. Si n’y a pas de « server side » ça ne sert à rien car tout le monde pourra avoir votre gamemode et donc le même serveur que vous.

Je tiens aussi à regarder ce qui se passe aujourd’hui, des milliers de clefs pour quasiment aucun gamemode, pourquoi les gens ne créer pas de gamemode ? C’est une question à ce poser.

S&Box devrait avoir un système de gamemode « privé » qui serait unique à chaque contributeur c’est-à-dire que sa serait comme sur GMOD, chaque serveur à SON gamemode sans copie possible. J’espère que la majorité dira qu’il est pour. Cependant S&Box n’est pas GMOD et le succès du jeu ne dépend que d’un homme. @Garry.

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Hello,
first its too soon to talk about monetising content on s&box since game is very early, but we can start thinking.
s&box is not just about darkrp, most darkrp servers on gmod are people that they dont know how to develop things and will just buy (or leak) anything that they want (they host things that they do not make). whats the result with that ? all servers are the same.

s&box is about different gamemodes AND NOT different community servers, garry dont want to make the same mistakes again.
s&box is more roblox than gmod.

for garry, gmod not sold because of server owners

i dont think making all gamemodes private will change a thing like a dev said on discord here :

even uploading directly in assembly since decompiling c# code is really easy. if someone really wants your private gamemode, he will get it. and it may have some incompatiblity with some systems ? idk

basically, open source will not be death of monetizing things, there is other way like patreons, etc
someone can simply imitate and create another version of your content, and he may made something better than your and is open source and your not.
remember that only less than 1% will make content for money (right now, future dont know) and even less than that are gamemodes that will be popular (so get a cut of sales). also what about support ? paid content must have support and what happen if they dont ? it is forgotten and someone will come with something better for WAY less cheaper or even free!
garry want to be able to play without hosting a dedicated server, that is his main goal. you made content for experimenting some stuff, getting feedbacks from people, … and not to make a war of community servers that constantly tries to hurt each others and making thousand of $…

for me, it is good that everything is open, it will motivate everyone to make things better that not sucks. because most of the time for private stuff, it is incomplete and someone who want to improve it cannot do it because it is private and must pay astronomical licence fees. again for me, paid gamemode doesnt make sense in 2021 but paid assets (maps, models, …) still does with unreal engine.

remember, there is not only s&box that is a sandbox game, there are a lot of other ones, so garry want to do something really different that will be beneficial to the end user experience. if s&box is not for you, you can just ask a refound.

this message can sound very confused because i write things that comes to my mind directly, so sorry about that structure.

edit: about people not making content on s&box right now :
most of them are not because s&box is a mess, unstable and can break at any time because of a new update.
so they dont make much content because of the risks.
and also because making content on s&box is really time consuming (source 2 new engine, not much tutorials, …) so not all people have time…

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This argument is heavily flawed, we all know that working on original gamemodes in gmod is a dead hobby, they all get drowned out by the already popular copy and paste RP servers, the gull of you to call them unique is pretty offensive ngl.

Monetization is still a long shot, but ideally there will be no “VIP” player in a gamemode, it is such a long shot that we don’t even know if you’ll even be allowed to have a pay to win system in your gamemode.

People do, just a couple dozen, so it’s very slow, Garry revoked access to thousands of people because of how utterly hopeless they were and gave them to new ones, which to be fair will probably be useless as well.
Only the first of the queues and the hand picked devs are actually doing work, the rest (undesirables) are just taking space and wasting people’s time by needing help for troubleshoot and stuff that is easily found on the wiki.

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No I don’t agree at all. When players buy extra features called “VIP” or “Premium” it’s because they are attached in some way to the community and/or to the players of the server, obviously having an extra advantage in terms of content can make the difference but personally I never bought anything just to have extra content, you have to like the community built around the server, that’s what will make the difference.

Also, I wouldn’t use a reference from the French community because the mentality is really poor but it’s also very different from the English or the Russians. The French may be afraid that the content is the same everywhere because of open source concerns, but if you look closely, the RP/DarkRP servers (mainly French) all look the same regarding the addons (Workshop and GmodStore) with a few exceptions. However, despite the little difference, the servers still manage to make a profit, so I’m not really convinced by this reason.

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Thank you for all of your answers

@Grodbert @Fivy

I agree on some point, it is true that many DarkRp servers are identical, but I have an idea of a server with a unique identity, because with this system only the lazy are the winners

The problem with darkrp is that the code has been OpenSource on gmod and that everyone takes this code (the lazy) and creates identical darkrp which gives shit

the “workers” create them, a personal darkrp, and are a thousand times better (simple roleplay, real life roleplay (french server)) The problem of GMOD it is exactly the same which will be on S&BOX, a base of darkrp and full of lazy people who copy and do shit by drowning what makes good darkrp gamemode. you want something different, but this will create the same on S&Box

Because currently, the base code of darkrp on GMOD has never been improved, despite being OpenSource

@Florian4016 I agree that a VIP buys from a server because he likes it, but, will there be dedicated server?

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Of course, it is already available by adding -dedicated as a launch parameter of S&Box. You can even download it via SteamCMD if I’m not mistaken. When the game will be more developed, there will normally be the possibility to create addons (and not a whole gamemode for some additional features to the Sandbox gamemode for example). By the way, you mentioned the client/server-side distinction. Currently, I think it doesn’t really exist but in the future it will be there. Currently, developers are “restricted” by a list of usable directives/functions but Garry indicated that this will only concern the client-side (to avoid abuse and malicious scripts…) and the server side will be totally open for developers.

Yes and no. The core has not changed but all the foundations have been improved over time and still continue to be perfected today. The DarkRP gamemode was not meant to be like the PERP (but also like Clockwork, NutScript and Helix) gamemode where everything is already created and you just have to configure or tweak some things, the DarkRP offers a certain freedom to modify to your liking all its mechanisms by creating your own addons. The problem is that people expect to have something already made when the gamemode is not designed for that (this is the mentality of a majority of DarkRP server owners).

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From my current understanding, the entire premise of your rant is incorrect.
Nowhere has it been said that all gamemodes need to be open source. If set up / coded correctly gamemodes can work exactly the way they did in Gmod if you so wish, with only client-side code being sent to players.

There are just more options for distribution now.

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I wouldn’t go as far as to say that DarkRP servers were unique, a lot of them were just DarkRP with a bunch of copy and paste addons (and terrible ones at that). However, I do agree that monetization is a huge motivator and I don’t see this game succeeding as well as GMOD did if creators are unable to make private game modes.

I mean this shouldn’t even be a question, it’s basic economics. Why spend your time creating something if someone can just copy and steal everything you created? Also as of right now, according to what I last read on the forums, server-side and client-side code ARE NOT separated. Which is absolutely ridiculous if it stays that way or hasn’t already.

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Virgin gmod subscriber vs. Chad s&box developer

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If someone wants to copy something they will copy it. Whether it is open source or not. I wouldn’t worry about it.

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Garry ripped HL1 Assets whos your daddy :kissing_heart:

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If you’re honestly desperate about making money, just create an awesome game and plonk a battle pass or something similar in it. Stop thinking in terms of ‘servers’ when we can make entire games.

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It’s not about being “desperate” for money. He brings up a good point about monetization and how will that occur if everything is open source and public. The reason why it’s a good point is that while there will be people that make content for free (especially in the beginning), an overwhelming amount of people don’t wake up in the morning to work without compensation.

If you want high-quality content, then monetization must exist. Compare your average content between the Steam workshop and the GmodStore if you want an example of that.

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Nope, completely wrong. Garry has permission to use those assets. There’s a big difference between stealing and having permission.

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You can easily monetise an open source project, nobody can just take your stuff even if the source is open, that’s what licenses are. (You can either dcma their servers and content, and in the extreme, sue if they’ve managed to ‘steal’ any significant sum). Keep in mind the main reason why server owners buy plugins in gmod is for the support, addons like serverguard have cracks everywhere, but anyone with a large server buys it for help if something goes wrong.

Even in industry there are open-source commercial products, I work with them all the time.

Considering the game-focused design of s&box there are many methods to monetise, just have user accounts with progression, skins, in-game currency, etc etc and even if somebody decides to clone your project, they’ll not be able to steal players, since your playerbase is already invested.

You’re also forgetting that your content is already guaranteed to get stolen, you can’t stop someone reverse-engineering their client and remaking a server backend, lol.

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If it’s like that, it would be great

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Always the sentence “yes but it will be copied if opensource”

There is a huge difference between the number of people who will copy if it’s opensource and the number of people who will copy if trying to reverse a code if not opensource

1000 people will be able to copy if it is open source
5 will be able to copy if reserve the code

For the money, there must be in this game, the quality depends on it and as @Riles have already said , a difference between the workshop and the gmodstore is enough to realize the importance of the money.

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At least one of those 5 people will either release their copy as open source or sell a competing version. It balances out in my opinion.

At the end of the day all that matters is quality and support. If your product has higher quality and support then people will pay you instead of using a clone.

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To be honest, i think most people who wanna make “servers” in s&box just dont wanna put work in it to generate easy revenue.

probably they are waiting for a nice gamemode to be made they can freely put on their servers to “customize” and make money out of children like gmod and darkrp has shown us.

Either that or they dont understand how easy it is already to play with your friends, if you wanna play my game1 with your friends in s&box you dont need a server, just hit “Start Game” and you are in.
(Maybe also “Invite” in some cases but you should get my point)

S&box will later have controlled environments for the code (Server and Client) to protect it (also known as “no server code for the client”) and also dedicated servers, currently its just not important because bugs should be fixed and the api improved first.

But even with this unprotected way you can secure your stuff by simply making your gamemode a client for your infrastructure running somewhere else protected behind api’s (you may have to validate steam sessions tho) or just overwrite the server’s accesslist and change how code is sent to the client entirely (later when real dedicated servers are usable)

Sure there are people who may copy your stuff even if you protected everything but as someone else already said: just be better, if someone else can make a better version of your stuff and people like it more its technically a “you” problem (player feedback may be important here), not that technically everyone on the world can re-upload twitch to his server and run it. (Which is true but still didnt happened)

you could even sue them if they break the law by doing so but you can prevent that player movement by not ignoring the feedback in the first place.

just my 2 cents to this i guess.

1: I may or may not have an gamemode yet tho

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Exactly what I was about to say.

If someone is going to steal your content for their own server, well then that already tells you about their character. You know, lazy and unoriginal. And someone that is lazy isn’t going to spend their time trying to reverse your code or recreate the server code. That’s assuming they even know how to do that, which they don’t.

Yeah, you will have a basement dweller here and there that will be able to do that. But as @KyanGates said, that will be far less likely to happen than just being able to directly copy your work if it’s open-source. And in those cases, I would see the DCMA route being a valid option. But trying to enforce that when your work is open source to start with, well that would be absolute hell.

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