Iron Man Mode

So, a thought: what if there was an adjustable Iron Man option for servers?

The basic premise would be that when you die, there are serious consequences. Because your character is dead. Game over. Survival is hard, you failed, try again.

There could be a couple of ways to go about this. One (on the gentler side of the equation) would be that when you die, your doors no longer belong to you, you lose all of your blueprints, etc. You’re dead. Your new character isn’t your old character. It’s really that simple.

The other, more extreme option (that appeals me personally) is having a variable ban length attached to dying, in addition to the previous stuff. You got offed? Huh. That sucks. You can’t connect to the server again until a variable amount of time set by the admin passes. Or, if ever there’s a spectator mode, that’s the only thing you can do.

Why in the world would I suggest this? A number of reasons, actually. For one, I really do enjoy the idea of Iron Man modes in other games, and it lends itself very nicely to Rust, I think. For another, I honestly do think that the current KoS mentality is a little absurd and flies in the face of realism. If everyone in early human history acted the way people do in Rust, our species would have died out to some other apex predator a long time ago. But of course, in the current setup, if you’re smart there’s no real risk to dying if you’re at the top of the food chain. You might lose some nice weapons and armor, sure, but you probably have six other bases and tons of resources to bounce right back to your feet in no time. So, why the hell not shoot everyone and everything that moves, and some that don’t?

This method would help correct that imbalance, I think, because it comes down to this: are you REALLY willing to risk everything to just kill that Bambi? What if it’s not actually a Bambi, and you end up dying? You know, just like in real life when it comes to people with concealed carry permits, and you start a fight with the wrong guy? But it would achieve that balance without stripping away any of the existing features, or depriving players of tools or hard-earned weaponry.

You think people who don’t constantly want to die to mindless PvP are carebears? Think they’re just not hard core enough to handle this kind of game? Okay, cool. Prove it. Let’s take the hard core level up a few notches.

I don’t really care for these idea’s, here is why:

  • You get picked off by some guy camping in the rocks all day with a bolt action -> game over
  • You get mauled by a wolf/bear/zombie just when your internet has a lagspike -> game over
  • You are just running around and fall of a rock -> game over
  • You try to be friendly to a naked person and they bash your head in -> game over

See the pattern here? Don’t get me wrong, dying shouldn’t be encouraged, but putting such a penalty on dying I don’t see why it would be logical to go out and explore/raid. As soon as you die you are done for, no base, no items, nothing.

Being able to respawn and continue with where you left of is in my eyes a fundamental part of the game. Or at least, continue with something more then just a rock, a torch en some bandaids.

I understand your reservations, and that sort of proves my point. Also, note that I’m not advocating this be a mandatory setting - I want it to be an option on servers that you can turn on or off, depending on the kind of experience you want to have. But, here, I’ll go through your objections and explain why this still works:

  1. That guy certainly can pick you off and end your game for you. Man, that’s pretty frightening. Makes you want to be really cautious when you go out. Avoid open spaces and the like. Or maybe periodically check those excellent sniping locations so you can clear snipers out… just like you would in real life is some maniac was camping in the hills with a gun. Also, that sniper would piss a whole lot of people off, and would eventually get brutally murdered himself, leading to a game over, you lose everything situation for him, too.

  2. That would have to be one hell of a lag spike. I’ve had plenty, but never enough to have an animal completely destroy me. There could probably be a system to reverse the “Game over” result if your ping skyrockets, though.

  3. Watch your step. Running through mountains without being careful can kill you. Just like in real life.

  4. Be cautious with who you approach and who you befriend. Just like you would right now. And, again, if some dude goes running around murdering people, he’ll be put on people’s hit lists pretty quick.

As for the rest of it…

You go out and explore because, well, you have to if you want supplies. Also, you’ll eventually starve to death if you don’t. That’s not really an option. You go out and raid when you’re really certain it’s worth it, and if you bring backup. But actually, raiding probably shouldn’t be the #1 Thing To Do in a survival game, so I’m really okay with only raiding when there’s a good reason for it (faction wars, etc.)

Understand that this isn’t a be-all balance pass. I happen to think it would help, but make no mistake, the purpose of this setting would be to make the game much more unforgiving and frightening. And, incidentally, probably less KoS PVP-heavy, because banding together with others rather than murdering them and taking their stuff just to get murdered in turn suddenly makes more sense. Wars between groups would be a last resort and could really, really suck for both sides.

Also, I think having an option for you to keep your stuff/blueprints/etc. but also not be able to log in for a while could work, too. The option would be variable. That way you’d still have serious consequences for dying, but it wouldn’t be square one, if that’s the flavor you would prefer.

I personally prefer ironman game modes, but I just don’t think they would work in Rust.

As it stands, Rust is pretty punishing about death. You lose everything.

The game would need some serious work on spawn locations and it would need new ways to prevent existing top geared players from simply grouping up and camping all the new players until they leave the server.

As it stands, there are many groups that do this right now, raiding new player homes/griefing them until they leave the server. Without any kind of “ironman” system.

Not to mention the absurd amount of people using ESP right now.

I would LOVE to see this, somewhere down the line. This game is hardcore, and I would absolutely love playing even more hardcore modes just as a challenge.

Well on official servers with around 100 people, all I’m good at is DYING.

Sometimes I just appear with a rock on someone and just get killed in the first 10 seconds (and this happens to me a lot on server changing…).

On huge servers you already almost can’t survive, with that, after some time the people in the server for longer wouldn’t ever allow new players to play in the server and they could never accomplish anything if they lose their house, all stored items, blueprints…

ps: The game needs more balance for new people comming in the server. It’s already even more unbalanced than one of the most unbalanced FPS games like Battlefield 3. By doing this, the game will even unbalance further for new people trying to play in a server (at the moment the game favours THUGS only)

For that much HARDCORE, try War-Z game and you will enjoy spending 4 hours to get a gun and someone just kill you all over and over again…

That’s why I don’t play that stupid game for a year already. Lost to many stupid hours doing nothing in it. And everytime I picked something crazy, after like 4 hours, 6 hours trip around the map with a friend, someone just spawn near by with Night Vision and guns and just kills before we can even realize it :frowning:
Keep Cool

one question: if you die, what happens to “your” [Metal Door]s, boxes, etc?
And if you lived and shared with someone else.

I’d rather they just changed timeout on [Sleeping Bag]s to something like 60 minutes.
Maybe a Resurrection sickness?

Another idea would be to introduce ‘Passive Skills’, like : ‘mining’, ‘woodcutting’, ‘archery’, e.t.c.
They would grow as you perform a corresponding action, and you’ll lose half of them when you die.
Something along the line of 0/400(400 hits to max it) with each 10 points giving ya a 1% ‘gathering speed’ for example.

To me this just sounds like being hardcore just for the sake of. I personally don’t see much value or fun in this, for a game like Rust. I would rather see Rust evolve as a hardcore sandbox in other ways(like depth in gameplay).

However, I’m usually not against options and I don’t see a reason to not make this possible for a custom server. It shouldn’t be the default setting of how the game is played though.

I would totally make it so if you die once, you can never rejoin

No, you’re right. The spawn system would need to be revamped for this to work. Maybe with various random small “safe” areas scattered around the map that you can’t kill on, can’t mine resources from, and can’t build on that people spawn in (random so you can’t just camp on the perimeter of one large spawn zone).

Or maybe with temporary invulnerability and increased running speed, so you can book it away from spawn and outrun any campers that try to follow you. Other games have tried similar systems, including some Minecraft servers, and it does seem to work fairly nicely.

However, I have to disagree that death is particularly punishing, at least if you’re playing cautiously (read: properly). If you die, at the most you should lose whatever tools you were using for the task at hand and whatever you’ve harvested or stolen so far. If you’re raiding, you’ll lose some armor and some weapons, but if you’re at the point where you’re raiding, you’re probably an experienced enough player to have safe houses tucked away all across the map anyway, meaning that dying just means the inconvenience of hitting up one of your safe houses for resources and furnaces/workbenches to rebuild whatever you lost.

At that point in the game, dying is a minor inconvenience. With a system like this, dying would ALWAYS be a big deal, from start to finish.

[editline]23rd January 2014[/editline]

Your first mistake is playing on huge servers. Seriously, don’t - it’s a terrible idea. Currently there aren’t enough resources to go around, and there are far too many players in a small area for it to make sense. Find a small community server… you’ll have a lot more fun.

But regarding how this ties into this proposal, you’re missing an important part of how this would change the game play. If people KoS on a server like this, yes, it’ll suck to start with as a new player when they kill you, but they’ll also kill each other off. Eventually everyone will either be back to square one with you, unable to rejoin for a while/ever, or both. It would even itself out. The reason so many people kill new players, for example, is that there’s very little risk to them but a decent chance at a high reward. With the threat of meaningful death, I suspect attacks on new players would decrease, because they can’t be certain you’re actually new. For all they know, you’re bait and you’re packing serious heat. That could be the case now, but again, if they’re smart all they’ll lose if they get tricked is some armor and weapons that are fairly easily replaceable, especially if they have blueprints.

[editline]23rd January 2014[/editline]

I agree with the idea that it should be an optional setting. I say this in my original post. :slight_smile:

[editline]23rd January 2014[/editline]

I’d probably play on a server like that, just to have the experience, but I’d probably use a softer system on my own server. Don’t want to permanently drive people away if they’re good people, after all.

[editline]23rd January 2014[/editline]

In this system, your doors would become abandoned, locked, with the keys lost forever. Your base would slowly decay and disappear. Or people (or you) could mount a raid to break in and reclaim some of your old stuff. If the door combination thing happens soon, then no change - you could still access your house normally. You’d still be down your blueprints, though - but now you’d have a reason to keep extras around.

If anything this would promote bandit-like activity and KoSing even more. After all, why do people KoS I’m the first place? To piss you off and ruin your experience. Now that they know they can REALLY piss you off and ruin your experience even more, they’ll be even more motivated to seek out and kill nakeds
And if there’s one thing I know about those types of players, it’s that they won’t be even remotely concerned about the risks of going around killing everyone they see.

Still, it would probably be fun for about the first ten minutes until I’m inevitably freight-trained by a full Kevlar M4 bandit.

I would play this mode

While we’re at it, let’s make it so that you have to buy a whole new game if you die. Hardcore enough?

Hmm if you die and you get locked out you can just stash some C4 in a small bag in some bushes and then replace the doors/walls. Problem solved.

But the re spawn delay idea I can’t see a way to work around so that one gets a + in the margin.

[editline]24th January 2014[/editline]

Pay to win is not hardcore… its casual catering like hell and only self hating gamers think its ok.

[editline]24th January 2014[/editline]

You don’t think that people kill you in the hopes to find 500 metal ore, 470 sulver and 2000 wood on your corpse?

Right, but again: the same rules apply to them. They have fun freight training you, and then THEY get freight trained and lose everything (putting them back at your level), and suddenly it’s A.) a more even playing field and B.) not so fun for them anymore. They can ignore the risks if they’d like, but it’s a self-correcting problem, since that’s incredibly stupid of them and will get them killed and sent back to start without any of their cool stuff.

Also: Although some assholes kill Bambi types just for the fun of it, a lot of people kill Bambi types because they’re not actually new and have lots of resources. Like I said in my earlier posts, it’s low-risk, moderate-to-high reward. If you bump that up to high-risk, moderate-to-high reward, you’ll still get some of that behavior, but it’s a less certain gamble, so fewer people will take that chance.

[editline]24th January 2014[/editline]

…I’m guessing you either didn’t read my posts or just vaguely skimmed them. Having to start from scratch and/or having to wait to rejoin a server is in no way akin to being forced to re-buy the game, especially since there are A.) other servers with this setting enabled and B.) other servers without this enabled. Plenty of other places to play.

[editline]24th January 2014[/editline]

Sure, but there’s no assurance that no one is going to find your bag of “start again” loot. Plus you’d still be down your blueprints and would need to blow down your own doors (until the combination key system comes in) so even if you do get your resources back, it’s still not just bouncing right back to where you are.

Plus, ideally you’d pair this with the “can’t log in for X amount of time” setting, so that you die, lose your stuff, and can’t just instantly respawn and get your crap again. If there was, say, a 25 hour cooldown, your secret stashes would deteriorate, so that wouldn’t be an option for your C4, and your enemies would have 24 hours to raid your base without you hanging around. Even with a team base, you’re out for a while, making it that much weaker.

Glad there are people out there who think it’s a good idea.

This would be an interesting game mode, once a myriad of issues were fixed first (spawn camping, no-sway issue, etc).

I do think this would partly eliminate solo play, though. I know, it will always be harder for a solo player than a group of players. However, I think this idea would exacerbate the issue.

If a solo player dies, he starts from scratch. He has to run around naked, trying to not die until he gets to his former house, then he has to break in. After that, he has to suit back up and relearn all of the BPs. That means he either needs duplicate BPs or the item + a research kit. If he doesn’t have any single one of those, then he can’t make that item without getting the missing component. This can be problematic for rare drops. If the player died while defending against a raid, he has most likely lost everything and will be truly starting from scratch. Multiple structures will help reduce the risk of this, but against the larger groups that steamroll servers, that won’t help much at all.

If a player belonging to a group of players (even a small group) dies, he respawns naked and hides while waiting for his group to show up with gear. In the groups I’ve played in, once someone looted a new BP, they’d learn it then make an item that everyone would use to learn the BP. Because of this, retention of BP knowledge is easy. Even if a group’s base(s) was raided and all items (including BPs) were taken or destroyed, it just takes one survivor to ensure the knowledge survives. It would prevent the group from starting from scratch.

I would like this, in that I think anything that introduces risk or a decision in KoSing (which is a joke, and is not realistic in the slightest) would be an improvement. Also, it would remove some of the other BS issues utiltized by these players, such as “I have a sleeping bag and weapon right behind me, so even if you kill me, who cares. I’ll just respawn and kill you. I have many many tries to get it right.”

this sounds like a great idea. Reminds of of Xcom - Enemy Unkown, where if you make a mistake you can’t just easier fix it. One thing I hate about rust is people who keep using their sleeping bags to raid over and over again. I mean that is fine for maybe like a PVP server but an ironman type server should have beds off.

I don’t see why this couldn’t be something that a handful of servers support once modding is more supported. Why not?