Pointless building.

No matter how big or elaborate your build eventually. someone with a rock and time to go afk is going to steal your hard earned booty. just as a test to see how long it would take some one to break into my shanty shack. i built a 3x3 stone house and logged off with minimal loot inside. i kept logging back in to time it the best i could while playing on another server. 3 hours later and i respawned in the middle of a field. not bad considering i built out in the open where the house could easily be seen.

so as it stands you can merely slow down the rate at which you will be victimized by theft. Now i am not whining or saying this shouldn’t happen. i am saying it should be hard to do so. The time delay is nice once you upgrade to level 6 but i robbed a house with a rock… a freaking rock. not even a stone hatchet. there needs to be some kind of level where the options of breaking in become harder and harder depending on what your using. Maybe the final level being explosives only. Maybe a blow torch for metal.

also what is the deal with combo locks they are more effective than key locks but i thought the point of adding lock picks was to replace explosives. (just a random thought)

Isn’t this similar to real life though? If you build something, if people spend enough time on it, they can break it down, vandalize it and steal from you. Sure you can have metal walls, but enough brute force can absolutely knock that stuff down/apart, when applied over a long period of time. It strikes me as very fitting in a survival game for things that absolutely could happen in real life can happen in game. Losing what you have when you’re not there to defend it, that’s part of the game. IMHO I think it fits very well. Maybe metal walls could take a bit more punishment from things like rocks, but if someone really spends like 2 hours banging your metal wall down with a rock, they probably deserve whatever loot they get, because that takes some serious determination.

More defense options such as traps have been publicly discussed as a planned addition for months. However, things get done in a certain priority. There has been concept art of pit traps and falling-spiked-log traps and such posted on the official devblog/trello.

Things like this make way more sense than invincible walls, IMO.

Traps will make it more fun to build a base. Logging back in to find not only your still breathing but a few bandits are laying dead in your lobby lol

traps don’t reset themselves if your talking realism. unless they are highly complicated. plus from what i have seen so far as traps (bear trap) they aren’t even camo.

I have played on multiple servers low/high pop. Yes, the reality is there is no prevention. However there are methods to slow them down and possibly make the raiders think twice.
Currently since Friday’s new build I have three small bases scattered around the map. None have been touched. I have base making (4x2 T6) down to a 45 minute science , and to boot weapons,ammo and storage.
My bases are hard to come by. First you have to find it, then if you happen to do so your going to have to build in order to just get to my first panel. By then, your still looking at a good 2 hours to get to my stash (pending raider group size). By then, if you have gone through all that to get to my base…take it, you deserve it

Have the tools wear out and/or have a fatigue penalty incurred for not resting between strikes.

This doesn’t have to be difficult at all. If someone wants to fill their inventory with stone hatchets to break through one level 6 wall, more power to them. If that also would require said player rest between a set interval of blows or a “fatigue meter”, even better.

The risk is that the builders would also have to rest and/or replace tools. Totally ok with this. Seems the 500 Million people who play Minecraft don’t have an issue with that either.

[editline]6th November 2014[/editline]

And don’t get me wrong: I like the raiding aspect and never would want to see it go away.

I had a great time with my level 2 shack early on a map getting attacked by a dude with a spear and a rock (I wasn’t that far ahead of him); I let him bang on it a while, until I finally opened the door and let him charge in… right onto the tip of my spear; he got a couple of good blows in too and I actually bled out and died, but it was a extremely good experience in my books.

Problem is, these encounters are rare. Most of the raiding happens late at night when I’m in bed for work the next day and the kids with no reason to get up in the morning can prop a weight on their mouse and bash down a wall for an hour with zero interference.

Realistically, this would never happen: if I was actively in the game, I would’ve defended myself as any sane player would do or bolt out a back door if approached by a gang of raiders.

I think the tool durability and a nerfing of the rocks wall destruction power is more important than the fatigue system. Garry will get to it in time. It is part of baseline.

Good to know. Baseline as in the Rust roadmap?

Well, I don’t see it on Trello, but I guarentee he will re-implement a condition system for tools and armor. Without it, server economies would be inflated with tons of tools and armor and plus it helps deal with new players knocking on your base all day. In my opinion, the things Garry implemented right before he started on expimental will find their way into experimental in some form.

bear traps are single use before needing reset of course, but spikes don’t need to be reset. they just stand there and stab anyone who touches them. also traps won’t really need to be camo, there’s grass and nighttime. that and most people will be watching their surroundings, not the ground when they are busting down a wall.

I have a feeling traps will be used for more than just base defense. Gonna be a lot of fresh spawns running around looking for resources and getting hit by traps in the process. I know that if they don’t require a timer to place down, I will be keeping some bear traps in my inventory for when I have nakeds chasing me. Just plop one of them down as I run and hope the naked right behind me runs right into it! If they miss it, then some other poor soul will probably wander over it eventually.

Totally cool with that. It’s more PvP mechanics and tactics (and therefore enjoyable) that would set the great raiders apart from the nakeds banging on a wall for hours… and much more realistic.

Once again, I will explain why being able to break through building components in Rust should not reflect real life:

In real life, I would be woken up by someone trying to break through my door/window/whatever. In the game, I don’t have that luxury. Most bases, even if they are shared by a group of players, are going to be occupied entirely by sleepers for hours at a time, which is usually more than enough time for anybody trying to raid it.

You want to talk about determination? Consider how much time and resources it takes to build something that’s somewhat secure. Just to keep you out of a 1x1 space, someone has to put up at least six different components: Four side panels and two floors. If you break through any one of those, you can access the space. As the building gets larger, so does the ratio of building components you need to use to keep out intruders. That means it takes almost as much time (and in some cases more) to build a system of walls and floors to keep you out than it does for you to break in, even though it takes you longer to break a single wall than it did for them to build it.

Furthermore, consider this: No matter how many interior walls there are, the surest way to get to the loot is through the doors, and the days of houses with dozens of doors are gone. That’s because for every door in your house you want to be able to lock, you have to keep at least one key around. It has become almost entirely impractical to live in a house with more than 5 or 6 doors for this very reason. The planned keycode locks might change this somewhat, but even then, raiders will never have to break nearly as many components to get in as were needed to keep them out.

As if that weren’t bad enough, right now you can choose your entry point at will. In legacy, I could build a set of foundations in such a way as to prevent you from adding on and building stairs up the side of my base. Now, there is nothing in place to prevent you from building stairs up to any point on the outer wall or roof and breaking your way in from there. I can build a 7x7x7 base, and no matter how many doors or walls I have in my house, if you can guess where the loot room is (not hard to do with the way furnaces give off light) you only have to break through 4 components at most (out of a possible 1,000+ components used in its construction). Even if you aren’t sure where to go, the worst that could happen is that you end up spending a ton of time breaking down walls.

After all, If I do “wake up” to you raiding my base, you’re going to be able to run away long before I get a chance to fight you. That’s because I will likely have to manually unlock every single door in my own house left between us to even get to you.

Before you oppose efforts to nerf raiding, try to maintain your own secure base for more than a day or two. At least in Legacy, even if you get the necessary blueprints, you have to spend hours gathering enough resources just to make the C4 needed to break through a wall. Now, anyone with a stone hatchet can get to any room in any base in less time than it took to build that base. Don’t you think that’s at least a little unbalanced?

Whatever, dude, garry is headed toward Legacy baseline so your comparisons just sound like impatience. Everyones tolerance for hardcore mechanics will differ. I like the game very hardcore despite my short playing window. Ive got a buddy who leaves his game running with his volume up when he sleeps. Seriously, hes nuts.

yet, nobody can play 24/7. Eventually you may be able to set your home - security alarm to call your cell phone. Vulnerability while sleeping is a fundamental game mechanic. It encourages both grouping together with other players from different time zones (for added security) and allows associated backstabbing.

I work and have numerous family obligations. Im lucky if I can get 12 hrs a week in game. I can relate to your frustration. However, its forced me to be as careful, sneaky, and clever as possible.

You want to be secure when you are AFK or, more magically, when you are out of game entirely? Play on a modded "no sleepers/no griefing server. When I finally have a few hours to play Rust I want a hardcore experience.

The legacy balance was just about right. I agree wholeheartedly that baseline would be an improvement. Dont forget we are headed there.

To say that Garry is headed toward Legacy baseline is not entirely accurate. There are many aspects of Legacy that Garry has explicitly stated he intends to abandon in future development - an easily portable and deployable explosive like C4 being one example. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, I’m just saying I don’t expect the game to operate the same as Legacy.

I’m curious what you mean by “hardcore.” If by hardcore, you mean being able to be raided and killed in your sleep, then I, too, am an advocate for hardcore. I want everyone (including me) to be at some degree of risk, especially when they aren’t online. I want to be able to raid and be raided. I just want it to be equally as challenging to execute as it is to prevent.

I am not advocating against sleepers or griefing, nor am I calling for a return to Legacy. What I am saying touches on the subject of this thread, which is how it is currently pointless to try to build practically anything in the game. I’m not saying it won’t be fixed, either. What I am saying is that it’s ridiculous for anyone to want to leave it as it is.

Yes, vulnerability while sleeping is a fundamental game mechanic, but even more fundamental is gathering resources and putting them to use in order to reduce your vulnerability. Without that, what’s the point? Why should I waste my time trying to get stuff (even by raiding and killing other players) if I can’t use at least some of it to significantly hinder other players from doing the same to me while I’m offline? What good does it do me if the best I can do is hide somewhere in the bushes and hope nobody finds me? (I’m guessing that’s more or less what you mean by being “careful, sneaky, and clever as possible”).

The inability to effectively keep ANY (notice I didn’t say every) other player out of a certain space for more than an hour or two is the biggest reason why Rust is so broken right now. You can only have so many weapons, and they don’t do you any good while you’re offline. Beyond that, it doesn’t really matter how many materials you gather, nor how inventive you are in putting those materials to use, because they don’t get you anywhere. You’re better off sleeping in some bushes than in your own house, because then, at least, you have some hope that other players won’t know where to find you. (I’m guessing this is what you meant by being “careful, sneaky, and clever as possible”).

So yes, maybe I am a little impatient; a little anxious for the day when I can play the game, spend a few hours making a reasonably safe spot to start from the next day, and not have to worry about anyone having logged more than 10 minutes on the server (enough time to craft a stone hatchet) being able to undo my work in less time than I spent doing it. I think most of us are anxious for that day.

I’d be interested in seeing how a burglar alarm going off would effect whole “raiding someone’s base who is not online” experience, the idea being even if a player isn’t online to defend their base the sound of their bases alarm going off amps up the possibility of others engaging in pvp with the raiders.

I’ve repeated this ad nauseum, but the answer would be a combination of item durability and fatigue.

The former seems to be widely-accepted, the latter… not so much.

I’m more than ok with fatigue: would greatly reduce weighted-left-mouse-button wall attacks, running for days on end, reduce effectiveness in combat (goes both ways and makes creating missile weapons that much more important), and yes, building would be hampered to some degree, but only in the extremes.

It’s infinitely tweakable (server-side for modded servers) and can vary based on activity using a weighted scale. It also makes sleep important, to fully restore your fatigue points.

Finite tool durability is lag-friendly (reduces the number of tools server-wide); it’s more realistic, and it’s yet another survival task for both raiders and builders.

I do like the idea of explosives (haven’t played Legacy that much so not sure of the impact on C4).

If we have gunpowder, we should have TNT, but it should be really expensive and take a long time to craft. I’d like it to be messy and unpredictable too (potential splash damage to blow up Storage Boxes with collateral damage, particularly if wall levels are below X: make raiders think twice, albeit giving griefers a potentially devastating tool at their disposal).

Traps, traps, more traps. This could be really fun with trip wires, claymores, camo’ed spike pits, etc. Could be modular and combinable (i.e. build a “spike”, use it in a pit, use it on a trip-wired launcher).

But yes, busting down a level 6 wall in an hour with a hand tool is not good gaming. Blowing up my outer walls, only to fall into a spike trap, whilst your raider partner in crime cautiously sneaks in, kills me, and scores the loot is.

just to address fatigue, its already covered by hunger and thirst consumption increases for activity. its just that those systems are not properly implemented yet:)