Raiding Nerfed?

At first of all i’m new here so hi to everyone!=)

I’m asking for a raid and c4 balance.

I think that the last update are so bored because the c4 got nerfed and if you get into their base u will never get nothing of resources/arms/c4/… Because u can’t make a succesful tower if they have the cupboard tools in a good positions.

For example i have a home with 10 friends, our home are 5x5 on a big lake, the first floor (on water) have armored walls (1x1) inside it. Then we have 14 armored walls around the home, and our home are on the limits of stability (So nobody can make a tower). We have like 50 armored “Tool Cupboards” Around the walls of base.

Only to break the 14 armored walls to get into our home needs 42 c4… and to break our home of 5x5 needs another 42 c4 ONLY TO DESTROY IT, people will never get our resources…

So Every C4 costs:

2750 (Sulfur)
2500 (Wood)
2500 (Charcoal)
250 (Metal Fragments)
30 (Animal Fat)
20 (Cloth)
45’ (Minutes)

For 84 C4:

231000 (Sulfur)
210000 (Wood)
210000 (Charcoal)
21000 (Metal Fragments)
2520 (Animal Fat)
1680 (Cloth)
3780’ (Minutes) = 63 hours ONLY TO CRAFT

So tell me, are this balanced??

Thank you so much, and sorry for my poor english :S!

It’s balanced in the sense that it took you and TEN OTHER PEOPLE to do that much work. You can’t possibly balance that towards a solo raider. And let’s be honest here, your base is NOT that hard to raid. By taking out your armored cupboards a clever raider could bypass a lot of your security, I’d be willing to bet.

What I think a lot of people are missing here is that this game would be VERY hard to balance right now, and anything they did would just be a stopgap until they could get around to what they really wanted to do. You can’t increase costs of C4 because servers are usually wiped every week and this game already punishes part time players too heavily as is. When servers get to the point where you can stick around for a while and it’s not just a mad dash every thursday to get the biggest base in the busiest spot, the game will end up changing completely on its own. That’s when the team needs to come in with the balancing tools.

also, you forgot the most important part of the calculation.

3780 / 11 players = 343.6 minutes, or 5.7 hours to complete if all players are crafting.

balance will come. it will swing both ways, the main thing is to not have a kneejerk reaction for it swinging to raider or defender advantage, tell them and let them do their thing.

Hmm … if I had to guess, I would say that you didn’t actually build that mega-base, your teammates did, and you just “use” it. Otherwise you would appreciate the man-hours that go into building such a mega-base.

Yes, it’s true that it’s possible to build a base that’s very hard to raid, but that is going to take HOURS of work, THE SAME as it would take HOURS to raid it.

Would you have a base that took 12 hours to build, but could be raided in 30 mins? That is not balanced. If that was the case, no one would bother spending the time to build, and the whole “builders vs. raiders” dynamic falls apart.

A base that has taken many, many hours to build, should take at least a couple of hours to raid too. That IS balance.

atm raiding is useless…so easy build house … and so hard craft c4…i can build 2-3 floors, while you craft 1c4 haha !? also u can build unraidable base with t1…and destroy stairs or blok on 2-3-4-5 floors before u go sleep. and you are save … so atm raiding no balance useless and game so tired after 1-2 days. so remove tool cupboard… increase c4 dmg…lower c4 cost.

neil, he is actually the architect of the group, so he indeed built the fortress himself… the rest of the guys just gather resources and stock pile them, and i can tell you, it took them around 30 min to 1 hour to gather enough to make it all stone, then 1 day(not even an entire day) to make the most important parts reinforced… only 3 or 5 tiles of the outer walls need to be upgraded and only a few floors near water, so upgrades are minimum.
I can tell you, iplayed on his server, and HIS base, is balanced heavily on the builder side… raiders have no chance due to mainly being a water base, and it only takes 1 shot from a window to slow down raiders to a 10% probability…shoting the bridge that connect all the doors of the outer walls, they are twigs…

Add a picture cenn, they may get a better picture of the situation… since not many servers(and I’ve played on almost all of them) have the building complexity we put on our stuff…

Agrega un screenshot de la casa cenn, asi se hacen una mejor idea de la situacion. Ya que no hay muchos servers (Ya eh jugado en casi todos los servers) con el nivel de complejidad de construccion que tenemos nosotros en “La isla”.

wo wo wo wo, how much time did you spend to protect your base? in hours? i think that your team deserve to NOT BE RAIDED.

i live in a cheap dodecagonal tower which barely needs 20 c4 to fall down, and if you spend 20 c4 to destroy me, im not even mad, you deserve it, and i stop playing until next wipe.

c4 is fine as it is, 2 c4 for a stone wall is fair.

the prices will be modified but for the game right now, this is a fair price.

we are 4 guys, 2 of us can craft c4, 4 of us craft gun powder, 4 of us craft explosives:
we can make tons of c4 in a normal game session (4/8 hours). Also i usually gather all what is needed to craft explosives and gp and craft them while afk. in the end we always have enough c4 for a medium/big (with mistakes) base; of course if you have all those tons of armored walls, you DESERVE to not be raided, since you spent HOURS and HOURS and HOURS to protect your treasure, which for what i can assume is just guns and metal frags, which i don’t really need. We usually raid people without c4, we use it to destroy our enemies.

Cenn … first of all a water base is technical a semi-cheat to prevent raiding. I know because i also do it. Land bases ( not talking about rock bases ) can be raided too easily.

Your calculations are also not 100% accurate. Your using the 84 C4 as a calculation to “destroy” your base. Most raiders are not interested to destroy your base but are after your resources. Lets compare shall we:

42 C4:
115500 (Sulfur)
105000 (Wood)
105000 (Charcoal)
10500 (Metal Fragments)
1260 (Animal Fat)
840 (Cloth)
1890’ (Minutes) = 31.5 hours to craft. But clans SPLIT there crafting so its 31.5 hours divided by the amount of members.

50 armored cupboards is:

50 * 1000 wood ( cupboard ).

4 Walls + floor + foundation. Assuming they are only build one high:

6 * 50 initial wood
6 * 50 * 200 wood ( armored )
6 * 50 * 200 Metal Fragments ( armored )
6 * 50 * 200 stone ( armored )

That already is:

Wood: 50000 + 300 + 60000 = 110300 wood
Metal Fragments: 60000 Metal Fragments
Stone: 60000

This does not include the wood need to melt the iron ore + the fat for the smelters etc … So in other words, just in your cupboards defense you already have the same time / resources that the guys need for the 42 C4.

You state 14 walls. That is 14 layers of defense? How many resources go into this? It depends on how many wall segments you have per layer. As each layer gets bigger, we need to assume you have multiple and have them all round your base.

Then the initial base with its upgraded.


The only reason why your base is impenetrable to raiders is because your using a semi-cheat on the water. Build the exact same base on land and i can tell you that your base WILL be raided by any of the clans that have the same amount of members.

The amount of resources you need for a land base is way more then a water base. I build several big bases over time and the water base is the most resource inexpensive bases you can make. Almost no possibility of twig tower raids. Even if a enemy can get by your cupboards defenses, they most of the time can not enter your base even if they blow the outer wall ( the swimming / platform bug ). On a land base blowing that outer wall and they enter without any problem. So no offense but calling your base impenetrable is because you use the games mechanism to the max.

One clan i remember talking in public about this and there fear is that people will simply ALL start building on the water because it was so easy for people to get raided on land.

The moment they do raid you and take half your processed resources, they then can then focus on building more C4 at a very fast rate as they do not even need to bother with resource gathering / melting etc.

The problem is not so much clans bases vs clan raiders in the game because both can gather up the resources at extreme rates. The problem is mostly individual or small groups vs clans.

You can clearly see how small players quit after getting raided by clans and after a while you get nothing but the big clans left and a server filled with empty houses. If it was not for wipes that bring in new players, the servers will become very fast boring and death.

benjiro
I don’t think anybody could have said any more truth than you in 1 reply.

I’d like to add that also big clans get bored of this, because well, it builds an unfair advantage to the owners of the water fort, and you don’t feel any more like you are in that dangerous post apocaliptic game… they feel like: get into the game to roam around and spoil other people fun alone… since nobody in their sane mind will atemp to trow all their week savings at your base for no reason than rage quiting…

I chose to build a near impossible to raid base(on land) to encourage our enemies to come and visit us… Most of them know they wont take more than torches and rocks from someone naked at the bottom floor. But they still come and unload their rage on c4, posible trying to bring down the tower or killing al cupboards… but at least i log every day and do an inspectiong checking for some c4 damage or something…
If i had built on water, i would have quit day 1 after finishing the house :confused:

Once the game gets fleshed out I hope these “but mah raidz” threads will slowly vanish too. Raiding is just a bi-product of the current lack of other stuff to do. RUST is a survival sandbox, which surley has more to offer than just blowing up other bases and stealing crap. It should be something that can happen, not something that you aspire to as the purpose of your entire efforts in-game.

What would be better IMO is if there were structures on the map that could be raided for real rewards. I.e. Like Rad Towns only no radiation -just lots of doors and rooms to break into. It would give you more reason to make C4 with a real potential for gains. Especially if BPs were locked behind such doors, ones not found elsewhere. Groups would end up fighting over it, when c4 went off others would come running hoping to score some free loot and catch the raiders off guard etc. that seems better to me. In game terms.

Technically that is part of the air drops system. People fighting for the good resource. The problem again is balance.

A clan can easily outgun non-clan players. I see way too many times how clans get AK47’s and other weapon when most normal players are still base building and are at best bow / arrow. Let alone the armor advantage of clan players a few days after a wipe with metal armor vs normal player with skin.

Clans go after a airdrop and nobody else gains access to those weapons beyond the (mostly established ) clans that get stronger and stronger.

Notice how games become boring when most clans have build out bases, most individual players have left ( who the clans farm upon ).

Tuks:

Take a look on several servers and notice how its actually mostly clans building water bases. I noticed that most individual players are the people who ground build or at best rock build. The amount of individual players who water build are small.

I build several annoying bases for raiders but i found that it takes me hours of resource gathering to fix the damage they can do in a short time. Let alone the resources that i lose. In 20 min time they destroy so much ( with 3 or 4 people ), that makes me wast hours of night farming trees / rocks ( or do day farming but risk losing your life / resources ).

Personally i like Rust for the fun of the actual base building and maybe some small time raiding / trying to find weak spots in other people there defenses. But i never go full out like most clans with 40 to 80 C4’s in there inventories as they raid ( divided upon several members ).

Maybe its just my personal opinion but clans:

a) scare away the individual players. Lowering the amount of active playing people.
b) gain resources at a rate the individual players can never compete with ( C4 / AK47’s / bullets / … ).
c) gain resources for bases that are so big, that only big clans can compete with.

So yes … the game becomes boring because after a while there are just less people on the server playing. Seen it over several servers.

And i am not even talking about the massive advantages some servers provide with teleportation to clans players ( what only works with other players ). A clan invades your property: They can teleport back if anybody dies. They find your resources. They can teleport back and forward taking everything of value. You as a individual player invades a property, at best you can take one trips worth and need to face the danger of walking home! The more trips you try to do, the more danger of getting killed underway.

What angers me more is on some servers a clan is doing a raid. It becomes night. Then people start asking for “day, day …” and the admins ( who may be part of the raid / clan ) turn the game back into daylight. Again individual player see this and feel unfair how they need to deal with the dark.

Like i said before, the game is way too much big group focused that eventually it destroys its own gameplay after a few days. People become outgunned and just quit playing. Why wast time getting killed all the time by clans? Then clans get bored because there are only other big clans left.

Its like a snake eating its own tail.

Agreed. Can’t say that I have many good ideas to resolve this, unfortunately.

Honestly, you just sound like you’re complaining about modded servers. You shouldn’t be playing modded servers if you think the teleport function is so broken and admins turning on daylight is abusive. I do agree that big clans can make the game frustrating but how do you propose to fix it? There’s no way to enforce hard group limits without completely changing what this game is.

I would also argue that the biggest reason servers seem to empty isn’t because of big clans, it’s because the servers wipe every week and there’s no point in continuing after you’ve lost everything. It’s pretty much just a 2 day a week weekend deathmatch at this point. Wait for the game to get more stable, we’ll have longer sprints between wipes and things will change.

And finally, instead of asking for big groups to be nerfed because you got raided, you should start asking around the server to get some allies to help you raid. It’s not like you’re forced to clan up with them afterwards, give them some guns or something in return for helping you out. There’s lots of ways around problems, part of this game is about finding those solutions.

This. You shouldn’t be able to go up against a group of well armed and armored opponents by yourself unless it’s stealth, subterfuge, or allies.

I agree, it’s not fair that 10 guys with AK’s always get the airdrops, but I also don’t think it should be changed. I’ve gotten lucky and snagged night drops, waited at airdrops for people to kill each other then picked over the corpses, and I’ve just gotten lucky and had an airdrop land close by at off-peak hours.

There’s a huge group on the server I play on - like 15 - 20 people I think? I know people in the group so they’ve never come after me, but I’ll be joining them after the wipe Thursday.

However, there are enough people around our group’s base that if we worked at it we could potentially form a rival group. But I’m not interested in that right now, and would rather just join with them.

There are many options out there. If you always want to play solo then the game will be hard. Just like in the real world.

You guys are missing the point…
Big clans should have an advantage on resourse gathering, combat and airdrops… sure…
But the main point here is, BASES SHOULD BE RAIDABLE!

when a game mechanic stops a base from being raided, then the game has to change.
Otherwise the game looses his charm instantly…

I love building, i allways build diferent and new stuff every wipe, and of course i try to make my buildings secure, but knowing there is some glitches that make my buildings completely unraidable takes the fun away instantly… its like playing god mode…
Its fun for some time, then it gets dull…

How does this help younger 18 / 21 year old players? I have seen several clans simply denying people access to there group based upon age.

How about if a person in a group gets false accused. A perfect example was one guy who supposedly wasted 200 bullets. The person who reported this to the clan leader did not expect this person to be removed when he mentioned this. Later it seems that it was a mistake. But that person was now “damaged” good. Less change that the other clans take this person in, because if you are removed from a clan = damaged goods.

I have run a clan for over 7 years in my younger years and know all the in and outs of a clan. Some games are pure designed around clans and you do not have a choice. A old example TFC = TEAM fortress classic.

Rust technically is a survival game. In group you have more change to survive but it always turns into CLAN vs CLAN. Not community’s … So people need to take on roles for the clans. Need to follow the rules. Individual assets are “frowned” upon as some people get accused of taking “clan” weapons.

There is nothing wrong with banding together for survival, but in my personal opinion the clan aspect at this moment is not anymore about survival but pure about domination.

If people banded together in communities. Resources are mined and sold. People buying resources and making weapons / c4 and selling those in the community. It feels just “better” and makes it a sustainable environment. You can still be a outsider of the communities and sell your resources. Communities can fight other communities but without the whole focus of it being clan warfare or dominating everybody else.

On a few servers i ended up with, you had the ability to see a person there status. “Civilian, Murderer” etc … Guess what. Almost everybody was a murderer on the server. The few civilians ( individual players ) mostly left or also became murderers working in clans.

I lost count the amount of times i got killed just for being outside while most people knew i was a civilian. People do not kill anymore for survival after a certain point, it becomes about the trill of killing. Its difficult for me to explain this but rust does NOT have the ability to be called a survival game how it currently works. Its just another battle royal / death match game where grouping is the strongest tool.

If the game is nothing but medieval castle warfare ( this is how its currently being played out after a wipe ), then do not advertise the game as a survival game because lets face it. Its not …

frank_walls: It also helps if airdrops are not always in the same area. I noticed that the game has the bad habit of always dropping the airdrops in specific area’s. Some area’s never see a airdrop … ever.

I guess just stop being a douche with the clan’s bullets benjiro, I’ve literally never had the issues you seem to be having. Nobody said you have to join the clan, I said GET OTHER PEOPLE TO HELP YOU. You know, like those OTHER solo players who are apparently just there to be farmed? ORGANIZE THEM. There are ways to do it, I don’t know what your issue is anymore. It sucks dude, and I’d definitely like to hear some ideas to fight big groups, but like I said earlier, there’s no realistic way to limit how many people can group up together and cooperate.

Hi all, first of all i aprecciate all your repplies and thank you so much :)!

I want to tell you that we never are 10 players online at the same time, maybe 1 time we are like 6-7 but always we are playing 3-4 players.

I know that it’s annoying for the other players get killed by clans, but in my case, i try to not kill the other players who plays alone and i try to help them giving blueprints, or building a home.

I only want to say that if you raid my base, you only could destroy it, because you will never get the cupboard or the resources… that’s what i want to mean, nobody wanna destroy us because it’s too much expensive for only see how the base falls…

When the tower with pilar bug was in game, you maybe could spend a lot of c4 on a lot of floor false but you could steal the resources and the cupboards and the game had sense…

Now, if you use a block to get in your home and you build a lot of armored cupboards near base you will never get stealed, because i remind you that if you make a armored cupboard on fly with pilars and you destroy the foundation or pilars the cupboard will stand up always.

That’s why i’m asking for a raid balance because now if they know how to make a base you will never get the resources, maybe something that if you break all the pilars and walls from a floor, the house should fall off with all the resources of boxes, instead of standing up… that should make more sense :S!

Sorry again for my poor english!

we raid water bases like if it was nothing :frowning: how is that people can’t do it?

it’s not how large, or how high your base is, it’s how wisely it is built that protects you.
people study their victims days before the raid, it’s dumb to spend c4 for a mega base if you don’t know where the furnaces are, by whom is owned, and what kind of resources you could get inside.

if you are the target of a good rider, no matter how high is the rock or how deep is the water, he will definetly get inside or make rain down your loot with tons of c4.

You clearly never seen the type of buildings we make cst. cenn or me…
I challenge you to find a vulnerability…
i could even give you access to all my house to study it from inside.

As he stated, the best you can do is destroy foundations and see our bases from below… floating… nothing is gonna fall or be lost to the oblivion.

We know our stuff, and we are not alone on this… many people know how to make bases and soon, everyone will know how to make an unraideable base…
what will happen then? new players geting raided instantly, checking youtube for guides on how to make bases… servers filled with unraideables bases and no activity at all, or just random shotings like it was a BattleField Server…