Should walls only be vulnerable to C4 like in legacy?

There seems to be a lot of discussion around how easy it is to smash down level 6 walls when you are in a group etc, etc.

Would people rather that walls were only vulnerable to C4 or something similar like in legacy?

i.e. Would people rather raiding was resource intensive or time intensive?

personally i prefer everything being breakable by any method. c4 would be more efficient for 1-2 players of course, but i’m happy enough if 6 guys can break down my wall with picks while i try and repair it. i don’t think we need to make special rules to restrict what works, just balance how well everything works.

Level 6 walls should undoubtedly only be destroyable by explosives. It should of course be much more expensive to upgrade to level 6 walls then 10 metal fragments. Maybe 100 metal fragments per step would work.

I personally think that the wall’s level should determine which tools work best. IE: Wood (1/2) would be fire, hatchets, etc. and should the only level that the rock damages. Tier 2 (3/4) Stone should require pickaxes, higher-tier hammers, etc. Tier 3 (5/6) Metal should require some type of special equipment such as explosives to breach, but should also be more expensive (which I’m sure it will be as time goes on).

I think destruction to walls and doors should be updated in general. Here is my preference: Not only more durable but as we whack at a section of a wood/stone wall with the proper hand held weapon (pickaxes for stone walls only please), only a section or quadrant of the wall that was mostly hit breaks down, gradually stripping the walls but not enough to get through or requires a prone/crawl position to enter allowing the defender an advantage to fight off multiple incoming intruders. C4, if implemented, should have the same effect on metallic walls of low or high quality and as for wood and stone walls, those are to be completely torn open. Also, the explosives might vary in quality or have specific purposes, like a small blast that only works on locks, for example. Low tier locks like wood planks would be immune to that effect where as high tier locks - keys or code locks - would be threatened by this type of device as it affects single points of a structure. That helps deal with the balance. Additionally, while this might be complicated to do in this game, I’d like to see collapsing walls or ceilings. If you break or blow open a wall instead of completely disappearing it could animate or simply be replaced with a collapsed wall. Essentially, it turns into a fence like structure with piles of rubble or wood that would be, while enter-able, a bit difficult to get through. Finally, if we increase a new walls duration by a great amount to where there is no point to hitting it then they can implement a degradation or decay mechanic that would slowly weaken it over time. Certain looks of the wall structure, like moss-vine growth or graying and cracking of stone walls and rusting metal walls, would signify that it can take more melee and explosive damage.

examples of collapse wall and gradually stripped wood (peekaboo moments)

Oh and rebar frames would be cool too.

I would like to see the upper level fortifications require special tools to breach. In my experience, this method helps in community building as people get to know who is who based on their progress on the server. Alliances form to take down large groups. These large groups become rivals, sometimes even friendly rivals, and it becomes pretty clear who is capable of pulling off large base raids. These are the people that I enjoy having on our server and are the people that help with its longevity, staving off the need for server wipes a little longer. They are also the people that will rejoin your server after a wipe, helping to start a baseline population.

The ability to start destroying established bases within minutes of joining a server will be harmful to community building within a server. That’s fine if Rust players want to constantly migrate from server to server trying to establish a home/forming server raiding parties. Personally, the server migration and monthly/weekly server wipes are two of the things I like the least about Rust. I don’t see this particular change from legacy helping in any way to alleviate that.

Warning: Story ahead

Just as an example, we hosted a west coast server as many of our members live there. We ended up attracting a large Korean population at night on our server. We’d do our stuff during the day, then go to sleep and wake up the next morning to find a series of pillar ladders/crate jumps, etc around our base as they attempted to raid it. As days went by, new bases would appear overnight and after a few days the C4 raiding began. We’d raid their bases during the day and spread the loot around a few bases/hiding spots. We’d get on the next day to find that some of our bases had been raided, so we’d patch up the holes and raid a base or two of theirs. Even though our playing time barely overlapped, we still knew where things stood on the server.

That’s not to say surprises didn’t happen. One time one of our loosely affiliated allies found a pair of their stash houses and got away with a few dozen C4 and tons of kevlar and guns. We had just been hit pretty hard, so we waited until 3am pacific for all of them to have logged off and proceeded to raid a few of our allies stash houses that we knew about because we knew they’d have newly acquired loot in them. Yeah, it was kind of a dick thing to do, but they started off as our enemy before joining sides in response to the nightly raids and the server’s changing dynamic. Of course we played ignorant and the blame was placed on our nighttime friends.

The point is that the necessity to progress to the point of needing to craft C4 invited people that we rarely interacted with to become part of our community.

I like the current system, BUT they should make level 6 only breakable via C4.

Right now, IMO the system favors the “attacker” to heavily.

I build a 2x2 base, upgrade the foundations to level 6, upgrade the walls to level 6, the door the roof… total time to complete, start to finish: 27.2 minutes. (for a crappy 2x2 base)

THEN I log off for the night, some dude walks up with a stone hatchet… sets a weight on his mouse, watches a episode of family guy…and boom he’s in my base.

(How do I know…well I’ve done it) And its really easy if you know generally what timezone your server is on. I live in Alaska, and 1AM-8AM there are zero people on the server to impede my house exploring.)

[editline]23rd October 2014[/editline]

I like this idea. I dunno how “involved” they wanna get in modern tech. But they could make metal walls only penetrable via a acetylene torch. Which would be a hard to obtain blueprint. And the use of it uses a lot of low grade fuel maybe.

With the torch it takes 10 minutes to breach the metal wall, and it cost 50 low-grade fuel a minute.

Something like that.

Except that people would just wait until you logoff and break your house down just like they do now on legacy with explosives. Simply because if you are allowed to repair a building when someone is breaking it will simply make it impossible to destroy someone base while they are online :|. I dont want c4 either since i rather see a barrel with gunpwnder on my wall making a HUUUUGE noise.

Wood walls,stone walls should be breakable without somenthing explosive but you should only be able to take down Metal + buildings with somenthing explosive.

The problem with legacy is that its extremely easy to make granades or c4. I hope in “experimental” they tweak those stuff making a explosive craft cost a hell lot more than it cost on legacy and make buildings a lot more stronger as well.

I think a good system would involve breaking walls with anything up until the top 1-2 tiers. Buildings should be reinforced faster, but it should take more resources to upgrade so that the time sink is undisturbed without everyone having to hammer their walls for 3 hours.

Right now it is too hard (impossible) to break into a house while the owner is online, and too easy (just takes two rocks, one for the mouse and the one you spawn with) when they are offline. Raids and defenses while the owners are there are an awesome part of rust that current gameplay mechanics discourage. One guy whacking a wall while another repairs is the extent of online raiding right now, which is almost as db as raids where both attacker and defender are afk. There should definitely be immunity at some point to incredibly easy to make tools. At the top level there should be expensive and difficult to obtain items required. Something like c4 that is expensive but kills walls fast is needed at some point so that people actually fight each other during raids.

A powder keg would be cool as hell especially if they revamped the inventory system. If you can only carry a single powder keg on you and you move slow with it it would be pretty interesting in my opinion. Imagine having someone trekking a mile with it on their back to the house they are going to raid and then a new guy with a torch sprints behind him and sets it off on the guys back with a whack of a torch. Now imagine you they have to take down 3 walls and they are a group of 4. 3 of them are being slowed having to carry an explosive barrel on their back and 1 is sitting in the middle wide eyed praying no one comes along and blows all 4 of them up on their journey.

the powder keg idea is good. other options that would be really cool and balance risk/reward for raiders, although it would require some basic vehicle implementation:

medieval battering ram, trebuchet, placeable/transportable ladders, jackhammer, chainsaw, wrecking ball. The basic idea should be things that are somewhat complicated to make and transport, have some drawbacks or leave the user exposed, would hurt to lose, and maintain a medieval or mad max savage feel to them.

well, to be fair, many people wait until you log off in legacy to raid you too.

i don’t really agree that only explosives should be effective against walls of a higher tier, but i can see this; the different tiers of weapon have increasing levels of “health/condition”, and walls deal more “condition damage” to the weapon depending on their level. what that means is that not only can a stone hatchet etc do less damage to the wall than say a metal pick, a level 6 wall is much harder on the tool than a level 1 wall. so odds are without a handful of stone hatchets or a metal pick, the tool would break long before the wall. in this scenario the benefit of the explosives (and yeah, i’d prefer a more primitive satchel of gunpowder, or dynamite etc) would be their ability to deal massive damage in a very short time. and i guess that you carry a few of them, plant and forget as opposed to hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hitcrunch**swap*hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit-hit…
but again, the wall upgrade costs need to be increased, the build time decreased, and the health reduced a bit in conjunction with the reintroduction of condition.

c4 in legacy was idiotic (regardless of how much fun it was). TNT would make more sense.

If c4 can blow through metal walls, it should be rare and difficult to obtain. It should be a spurprise when your metal home is raided, not just the next morning on any (every) server where the admin magically has infinite resources and is always roaming the map.

I think Various Types of Hidden Traps would be a good counter to people trying to place C4 or explosives on your base, for example you could have mines placed around near the walls( not close enough to damge your walls) or spiked traps, which really could only be used if Rust had a terraforming option to dig holes.

mines would be cool, but they wouldn’t deter shit at 3 AM. Sleeping bag -> clear mine -> enter

For me, the ability to raid should be related to crafting, not setting up a macro on your mouse (or a large book) at a quiet time on the server.

So I am in favour of a variety of craftable tools that are quite hard to make and therefore do require time but in terms of resource gathering and crafting.

e.g. a metal crowbar which costs a decent number of metal frags and can damage stone walls. A powder keg for level 4 walls, TNT for level 6 walls etc.

Chopping down a Woodwall seems logical.
Breaking down a Stonewall Possible with a Pickaxe.
But a Metalwall should be only destroyed by a sort of explosion.

What about metal cutting tools like a torch? Can cut little holes in the walls lol.

Edit; Oh and it would obviously it would be limited by fuel. Something you find in some abandoned mechanic place or factory.

Fuckin agree with you.