To Garry: Lack of Vision

the seems to be a lack of vision on what the players themselves can see, and i spent about an hour trying to define vision in this term. please keep in mind this is my opinion and i cannot speak for others

what i mean, is that we don’t see in your perspective, or at least i don’t. as in you ask for what we want in mobs, but we don’t see where the map is going, so we don’t know what new mobs to want in. I get it will have the general feel, but if there are biomes then we can have a wide variety of mobs, if there will be no radiation then mutants shouldn’t be in the game, etc. will there also be boats? other land across the water? etc. going back through the updates at www.playrust.com does not do alot as there is only 2 updates that show what you feel, and those are somewhat old.

this lack of vision adds to confusion, no one knows where the game is going and without one, the game will slowly start to fade as people start thinking the game is going nowhere, as has happened to Dota 2. when the updates from Icefrog started coming slowly, and the release did not come out for a while, people flocked to LoL as it was newer. this led to Dota losing the potential it had, instead of dota redefining the genre and gaming industry, it was LoL (its on average 40-80K viewer difference on twitch)

on the other hand, notch (minecraft) updated his twitter frequently about minecraft and what he thought was needed doing. players who knew the game always had the feel of where the game should go. what could be added to make it more adventurous, as it was all about adventure and surviving. there were no discussions about dinosaurs, robots, mutants, etc. because everyone knew it wasnt minecraft. rust is in the same way, going with pve or pvp instead of adventure and creative. it is not which way the game should go, as it will eventually be going both ways, but which way to go right now.

but we don’t know how much PvP oriented you want it to be vs PvE. adding more difficult mobs, mob AI would do PvE justice, While defenses would Do PvP justice, but we don’t know which way you want to head torwards first, so we cannot provide feedback on that. there are articles out there on google, but they are all outdated, and give a general feel, but not of the current status of the game. this is another problem, as your ideas change and what was your vision might not be your vision anymore.

this is why i believe you should have your own sticky thread, where you post, and only you, about the polls and how it influences you as it happens? writing things down kind of solidifies things and it would also make how you feel about the game and the new features that are added and what people want, or in general just rant about things and get your thoughts out to the public.

I don’t see why a ‘general narrative’ couldn’t be suggested. I think we all understand a storyboard can twist and change and this touches on someone elses suggestion of getting some lore in play. I’d like to see it more realised =]

This is a genuinely alright, thought out thread. Congrats on that.

I think they might not want to establish a story until they finalize what’s going to be in the game. For instance, zombies were removed not too long ago. It would be a shame if they worked on a story just to add and remove things at a rapid rate, and it would be a shame if they worked on a story and it actually restricted them from making all kinds of changes.

Also, from what I’ve seen, Garry isn’t one to be really concrete about things anyway, nor does he give a lot of absolute direct input to the public (i.e. voting on features) because he likes to give things a try and see how it works. He’s a hands-on guy.

and this haziness leads masses of people to jump to conclusions about what this game is going to be or needs to be. for example, tons of people think this game needs to devolve into a caveman simulator or god knows what…

I think another reason for this haziness is that the devs and garry dont actually know themselves what they want, as I have ranted about numerous times. I am speculating that they had an idea of what they wanted this game to be like a year or so ago, and the product they released has been wayyy more popular than they anticipated and they have to balance their first thoughts and directions with the current state of the game and what the people are playing this game for.

I personally hope they really consider what makes this game as popular as it is, and focus on improving the game rather than drastic redirection. I wont give my opinion on what I think this game needs to do or needs to go because it does no good

I think milking Garry for every bit of 18$ or Euro everyone paid is bit nonsensical - somehow it is clear that you get the game and get to play it before gold version don’t really think you can have your finger in the development of it for that apart from screaming out loud opinions in hopes someone will think on dev team is good/great and will discuss them on planning days. Coincidentally you can browse through trello boards both Art and Main to see where the game is headed.

https://trello.com/b/1iXNdiYw/rust-art
https://trello.com/b/lG8jtz6v/rust-main

P.S. from Rust website FAQ there is something along the lines: …We’re limiting the distribution of the server right now. This is because we don’t know where we’re taking Rust so we want to keep our options open. …

Milking him? the man suggests a forum post from devs not much else. also, ‘getting to play’ before release is not a privilege when the game is open to anyone for $20 on steam. the game is also still in alpha for at least 6 months. at this rate it wont be released for years. and your part about not having a finger in development… hmm well facepunch and trello have community votes on changes so they brought this on themselves.
and the links you posted are to ART as you said, and they barely change. how does getting to look at some new textures give us any idea on where they are taking the game in areas that matter.

When I first saw the teaser on Steam I was amazed. I’ve never seen anything like it. So I did not hesitate purchased a copy of the game. First impressions of the game - wow., this is exactly what I wanted. The game is fully met all my expectations. Naked men with stones in their hands, bears, wild boars, wolves, open world, all this made me plunge into the game on 600 hours.

Now forum comes a lot of suggestions, including a lot of interesting things, but there many things that cant understand. I saw that Garry creates polls, I do not know how much it seriously. Just want to say that I’m sorry if the developers lost further vision of the game. I hope it is not.

what im saying is not that they lost vision, but we just don’t see it as much as they do, which can lead to player confusion on the polls sometime. its like voting for a president but not knowing what he plans to do.

Edit* also i read over your post some more and i got it. no they didnt lose inspiration, its just an idea generator. getting more then one perspective helps develop their own ideas.

shufly16, I read your first message carefully. I just expressed my opinion.

im not saying its a bad opinion, and if i came across like that im sorry. what i meant was that they are open for ideas as people generate a better variety of them then just a small team

Very well put. And I actually agree and am feeling that myself lately. I know we’ve been riding the “woah we have no idea where this game is going” wave for a while, but I think it’s probably about time to start having an idea where this game is going? I like your idea about Garry posting his own “diary” so to speak. Trello does not communicate vision, and it would be cool to get vision updates as they happen and Garry’s thoughts on things before they are patch notes.

What do you envision this looking like later on? What will people do? How long do you picture the average player surviving? What is the vision here? I want to know so I can share that vision.

As a developer myself, I understand why Garry is somewhat mute on his own thoughts/feelings. He doesn’t want to commit to anything and keep everything up in the air until he’s got a concrete approach to what he’s trying to accomplish. Not trying to speak for Garry, of course.

Each new feature is like having a new baby to take of. You have to grow that feature, babysit it, make sure that it works with every other feature you’ve created, etc. It’s a big step when building something others use. So his “dev” thoughts might give the impression that he’s committed to these values/ideas and will create more issues in the long term.

Anyways, my 2cents on the subject.

things on the server are already not concrete though. the map, the censors, cheatpunch as a anti cheat, the map, player models, etc. i understand what you are talking about when you say “he nurtures his ideas”, as i have many times posted and people have taken a negative side to things and it is best to think about it for a while. But still, i would rather know whats could be coming around the curve then being left in the dark, and i am sure some people would agree. (i use the term “left in the dark” loosely here)

if he wants to stay that way fine, but people like to stay in the know and i hope he does something to get more information out about the state of the game from his perspective

Clearly if you’re complaining about not knowing where they are aiming for Rust to be, then you’re not looking very hard as I found this information after a few minutes of Google searching. You’ll notice the common theme in each interview and the AMA is that Facepunch desires the game to have emergent gameplay. Where players have all the tools they need to come up with solutions for the problems they face in game. That means no artificial systems that influence player behavior. Like a karma system for KOSers. The idea is, if you’re getting KOS’d too much then organize a group of manhunters and take them down. Anyway. Don’t know if you’ve seen the links below, but they have some information that isn’t relayed on forums or in updates.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/01/08/rust-interview/

http://www.reddit.com/r/playrust/comments/1u5kqp/i_am_garry_newman_ama/

http://www.bananaconda.net/2013/11/exclusive-interview-with-garry-newman.html

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/01/24/the-brutal-future-of-rust-hostile-environments-pvp-and-you

Understood. And you are right. But what you are referring to is iterations (besides the anti-cheat, of course). He does the first version, gets it into a playable state and releases it. Starts the feedback loop with what people like/dislike and then iterates from there. I think this approach fits perfectly to what FP and Garry are doing. I think if he’s communicating each iteration to us, without fleshing them out first, it’s going to hurt the overall game.

I don’t like being left in the dark, though. And I wish the updates came a bit quicker, but hey, I do understand.

im just looking at the links and i can tell the articles are from a few months ago. it helps, but people request new features, plus those articles are not well known. thanks for the info though, i will be adding more material for the original post, and then i will go on to reading them

[editline]28th February 2014[/editline]

i am adding two new paragraphs, each about a game that did one or the other, to the original post, and it voice my opinion on iterations more clearly

Only one of the articles isn’t from last month and when did Reddit, IGN, and PC Gamer become not well known? The interviews are straight from Garry and Maurino. The AMA is from last month as well. You complain about not having information about where they want to take the game and then are presented with enough to keep you busy reading for at least 30 minutes and it’s no good? You said you’d read them later after adding more info to your OP? What if what is in those negates the whole need to expound on your OP further?

Sorry, but this just sounds like you want your OP to be right on the money more than you actually want the information you claimed to be seeking.

i realized that fact after i posted, but i figured i could go back. also in the first interview he commented on the lack of vision, saying:

yes it shows valid information, but it cannot say about the feedback on the forums that happened yesterday, nor a week ago, nor the brilliant idea he had a couple of weeks ago etc. it leaves some gaps. i realize the error of not reading through the info, but those articles will not tell me anything after a month ago, which is why i am suggesting this idea. suggesting is all.

also, why cant it be right on the money and request more information? i find the information easier to find if it is in the first post rather then spread out in the thread in random posts.

also, he also stated that alot of people got right on the money with ideas when they needed to fix problems, so it proves that the vision is there, just short term vision. (i might have to start a post about short term vision in the OP)

I do wished they’d pick a direction and state it.
All we really have is what we see in game and what they have been working on in the trello.

To me it seems that they are trying to go more handmade on everything and stay away from modern things like cars, Military weapons, ect.

I can’t wait for more improvements on the bow.

They do clearly illustrate the direction though. Which is what you were inquiring about mostly. If you want to see their vision then I think you need to apply for a developer’s job at Facepunch. I would think that they, like most developers who have a business to run and money to make, would keep their “vision card” close to the vest. Lest someone takes their idea for themselves before Rust can make it to release. What you seem to want is a “Developer’s Roadmap” of sorts, and I don’t think one exists yet. Remember you are in a very early iteration of Rust. It’s not much more than a tech demo currently. I think as we move closer toward beta you will be seeing where the game is headed, not by developer posts or anything like that, but I just think it will become more evident as time goes on.

[editline]28th February 2014[/editline]

This is precisely what I’m talking about. No one told attckdog where they were going, it just seems evident in the development approach and the changes to gameplay. It’s important to stress patience at this stage in development. Which is stated right on the Steam page. They don’t know where the game will go, they just know what they want it to feel like and if something loses the feel they want for the game then it doesn’t go in or it gets taken out. This is very much a “winging it” operation it seems at this point. A lump of clay that will be molded and shaped and remolded and reshaped. The info you seek will come when it is known.