Nerrel - Why Gamers Hate Motion Control (In Their Own Words)
30 replies, posted
Wow this guy is a prick about making his points. I don't disagree with his point but he doesn't have to spend half his time insulting the comments of his last video. Maybe he coesn't mean to sound that bad but he comes across as very arrogant.
I thought gyro aim sucked when my only experience with it was the DS and using the Switch in handheld mode, and most games I played like that had horribly low sensitivity. Using motion aiming with the JoyCon on a TV is infinitely better than the handheld experience.
To be fair, the majority of Youtube comments are in fact some of the stupidest things you can possibly read on the internet. He acknowledged the comments and points that were worth acknowledging but I'm sure the vast majority of them deserved to be responded to exactly the way he did.
Not only are they the extremely stupid, the bandwagoning is grating to deal with. If it was just one or two stupid comments it wouldn't be bad, but it's hundreds and hundreds saying the same stupid thing usually; it's pretty easy to lose the desire to approach the comments neutrally when they're on blast.
>Holding the wii up as an example of good motion control aim.
Yeah if you're playing a game with so much aim assist that the game nearly plays itself, sure.
Motion controls, much like touchscreens, are garbage because they have piss poor accuracy and precision. Even top end VR systems like the vive aren't perfect, and routinely have random twitchy hiccups. Motion controls often have noticable input latency on top of that, (although that at least has gotten better than it was in the kinect/wiimote era).
Aim assist has gotten a lot more subtle than the old days of COD4 iron sights snap+tracking, and that is a far bigger benefit than the addition of glitchy spastic gyro aiming.
Ever played the Metroid Prime games on Wii? About the perfect example of pointer aiming from that era. The only thing it was missing was MotionPlus support so that it could retain the cursor position when pointed away from the sensor bar, but outside of that, the way they handled aiming and turning was perfect.
Yes I have, and that's exactly my point. Those were the pinnacles of that era and they were awful compared to a mouse, and that's before you get into how much input lag the wiimote had. Sure, the lag wasn't even in the same solar system as the trainwreck that was the kinect, but it had noticable input lag.
Current gen gyro tech is pretty good, but it is still dependent on aim assist. The only reason people don't flip out about it is because the needed corrections are smaller than sticks. That's why console players like gyro, and a lot of PC people don't. Because both gyro and dual stick are utter shit in comparison to a good mouse.
I would disagree about the "awful compared to a mouse" aspect, but everyone knows my stance at this point. I bought a Razer Hydra to replace my mouse with motion controls back in the day, and for TF2 - really the only online FPS it worked natively with - it both upped my game and was more enjoyable for me. Unfortunately, being a Razer product, it's long-broken nowadays, but I'll stand by motion controls just as I always have.
Shame nothing ever came of the Sixense STEM (Hydra 2, basically).
Most of that stigma is directly the fault of the companies pushing the hardware. They welcomed the shovelware with open arms because it showed off the hardware gimmicks.
The crushing majority of motion control in that era were either nongames where things played themselves, shitty party games, or forced gimmicks in otherwise decent titles. The handful of outliers such as the metroid series where things were 'good' still had problems.
Would you spend 60 dollars on a game when every experience you've had with motion control has been negative? Most people wouldn't, and didn't.
Motion control has its place but a game can't really stand up on motion control alone unless it's Wii Sports. Splatoon 2 is an excellent use of motion control because it actually adds precision onto a conventional button-based control scheme.
This is a good point. I don't think that anyone would argue that motion alone - or touch alone, for that matter - would be sufficient for many games (though some games certainly can work entirely on these schemes), but when they're used to supplement the controls we already have in place - the same way analog sticks were brought into the fold - they're excellent tools in the HID arsenal.
And basic accelerometer/gyro motion chips are so cheap now that they should be standard in every game controller going forward. There's no reason not to have at least that option. The fact that the Xbone controller - or even the Wii U Pro Controller, of all things - don't have motion chips is dumbfounding to me. Nintendo at least learned their lesson with the Switch Pro Controller, so I'm hoping Microsoft follows suit with the Xbox 4.
Yeah no, I actually find motion controls today to be pretty damn good compared to the wii which felt like it was before it's time. VR changed a lot of that for me. Especially with Doom 3 in VR with motion tracking and everything.
Mathewmatosis did a retrospective series on the Zelda franchise. In the one about Twightlight Princess he noted that roughly one in 20 times he tried to swing his sword the game would fail to register the motion. If a controller had one button which would randomly fail to accept inputs 5% of the time you'd immediately return it because that shit is broken. That's not even a game considered to have bad motion controls.
The Wii was the big jumping off point for motion controls but it was also the biggest hurdle for them too, since it actually wasn't very good at detecting motion. The Switch motion controls, which use a gyroscope, are so much more accurate they make the Wii controls look insulting.
Bear in mind, the Wiimote did eventually get a gyroscope halfway through the Wii's life via MotionPlus, which was first a dongle to retrofit original Wiimotes (included with early MotionPlus games like Wii Sports Resort) before phasing out the old Wiimote entirely for the Wiimote Plus. That model had the gyroscope built-in and started coming standard with all systems as well as major MotionPlus games like Skyward Sword, just in case players didn't have one yet. That fixed the issue, although despite coming with every new system past a certain point, it was never truly adopted as standard due to the sheer number of original Wiimotes still in circulation. Most Wii games even after its introduction didn't use it, just so that all those old Wiimotes would still work.
I was hoping the Wii U would fix that by packing in a Wiimote Plus as well - a brand new console being a clean slate for it to truly become standard - but Wii U ended up not packing in a Wiimote at all. A mistake, I feel.
I'll agree that the pre-MotionPlus Wiimote had rather inadequate motion capabilities in retrospect, and probably should've had that gyroscope from the beginning. Instead, it was held up almost entirely by the IR pointer. That being said, I feel that the Wiimote Plus is still pretty good even by today's standards, even if it's been officially discontinued with the scrapping of all Wii products and branding post-Iwata.
Now, the Joy-Cons are more advanced internally than the Wiimote in numerous ways - motion chips being one of them - but I don't feel they make as good motion controllers due to their shape and small size. Whereas I hold up the Wiimote as a masterpiece of industrial design that - outside of lacking a truly good motion chip at first - is still the gold standard for a motion controller due to its shape and button placement. It's the perfect "wand" controller. It has everything it needs and in the exact right places. Its look is sleek and inviting, yet it's still comfortable to hold for long periods of time, and its shape also lends well to its modularity (look no further than the slew of "shells" it could fit into), and on top of all that, it can even be spun sideways as a de-facto NES controller with added tilt controls. If not for the fact that the Nunchuk never got an update, I'd almost say that I don't consider the Joy-Cons a worthy follow-up. Even so, I feel they have room for improvement (but I also believe Kimishima rushed the Switch to release in order to sweep the Wii U under the rug).
I think the existence of an analog stick on both joycons by default makes them better than the Wiimote and Nunchuk. I think that the Wii's biggest failing in terms of shooter controls was the fact that the Wiimote didn't have an analog stick on it.
The issue is that Youtube comments have always been like that.
He was essentially looking for the bottom of the barrel to be a prick at and then turn around if asked and say 'But they're mean'. Well no shit, if you're looking for objective stances Youtube is the worst place to go.
Especially with the whole "People who don't like motion aiming probably never even used it" bit. It seems like he's lumping in everyone who doesn't think motion aiming is the best shit since sliced bread with the people who just link to Wii Music meme videos.
That's a fair point, I get that people like combining the precision of the motion controls with the speed of the right stick. It definitely worked well on the GamePad in Splatoon 1, although I don't have any experience with using motion and the right stick together on the Switch yet. I kinda wish it kept the Wii U's "both sticks up top" layout, since it seems to me like the using the right stick with it being so far down now would screw with your motion aiming.
Though as an anecdote, back when my Hydra still worked, it had two sticks (and both in the upper position, no less) but I ended up using the right stick as a weapon-select wheel rather than coarse aiming. So I never really felt the need for that right stick personally, but I definitely see how it makes motion aiming more palatable for some people and I get wanting the option.
I dunno, I've been mulling over motion controller design for several years now, trying to make something with the "perfect" layout. I've yet to make all the pieces fit yet, but I've given it a lot of thought.
Its not even a hard counter, I have used Motion gaming.
I fucking hate it. Its like the worst of both worlds, the accuracy of hand movements so minute that I'm essentially fighting my own hands to do something as simple as grab something because I don't have the textile grip of real life and the lack of buttons and controls means I can't even finely do it.
That's why I'm excited about Valve Knuckles, because we'll finally be a step closer to that kind of shit.
IMO that's the best way to do motion aiming. You can do broad turning with the stick and compensate for fine aiming with the gyro controls, and then just use gyro for precision shooting. Using a bow in Breath of the Wild and Skyrim is very natural using this system.
So, sounds like how the Wii U GamePad did it.
Gyro aim is why the hell better than just joystick aim, and I view it as a very separate thing from motion controls. It's also optional, always, so people bitching about it is absurd. It's also not good on its own as a stick still serves well for turning and 'camera' movements.
motion controls itself suck without VR due to the need for true presence, but become amazing while in VR if not superior
But then they wouldn't have an excuse to shoehorn their latest gimmicky controller into everything. The WiiU was a hot mess full-stop. They took the gimmicks, ratcheted them up to 11, and then were surprised when people didn't like it.
Developers weren't interested (admittedly you can't really make something cross-platform while using a gimmick like that effectively), and consumers certainly weren't a fan of it because even the first party games predominantly used it for pointless gimmicks just so they could check a compliance box that they used it.
The true flaw of the Wii U is that the only true use of a dual screen set up like that is in its menu control (Windwaker)
the DS itself is a very different story because its so compact and the screens are together, so it actually works better
This is pretty superfluous but Matthewmatosis said that when talking about Skyward Sword, not Twilight Princess.
It doesn't help that the thing is bulky, has no portability, and looks like shit
Giant bezel, awful glossy plastic that has no grease protection layer.
Meanwhile the switch has everything the Wii U could never achive. It's just a straight home console except actually, its a portable table.
My issue with Gyro aim isnt that it doesnt work, its that just jumping into a different control style entirely is an instant immersion breaker for me.
I really dont know how else to put it.
I decided to use steam to try gyro aim, and honestly it works great.
Dual analog is so ingrained into the very fabric of your methods and playstyle by now that you find the gyro aiming to be awkwardly cumbersome and hard to adapt to, probably. I'm the same way.
I've never been able to get my Joycons to make motion aiming bearable in either mode, turning the feature on in Breath of the Wild gives Link parkinson's unless I put the Joycon down on the table.
Still not sure if that's how it's supposed to work or if I just got a dodgy Joycon that's way too sensitive.
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